Train Fare-No ticket fine - please help!

taffy056

Livingthedream wrote: »

Hi, taffy, please forgive me for correcting your wording, but she can't get convicted for this and won't get a criminal record, unless she goes against the courts judgement.

This is for the following reasons, as the OP has paid for tickets, was on the right train and had half the required documentation she can't be prosecuted for 'fare evasion'.

I know they could prosecute under 'Fail to show a valid ticket' contrary to National Railway Byelaw 18.1 (2005) but this is normally kept for serial fare dodgers and I don't think a magistrate would be impressed if this case came before him, with the amount of defence evidence.

No worries, when I mentioned that I thought this would have gone to the magistrates route, happy to see it doesn't and to be corrected, its now really up to the OP now, she has been given enough info to defend this imo, and if I was in her feet I would, just can't see see it going against her.

HO87

AlexisV wrote: »

I was under the impression our OP had written to them with proof already and they are just not listening.

Ignore the civil court aspect - nothing will come of that. The only issue is mag's court, in which case you say they are going for Byelaw 18.1. Either way, I don't see what else the OP can do. They have proof of purchase in any case. At the end of the day, the journey was paid for.

Agreed but the breach of byelaw 18.1 is failing to be in possession of a valid ticket entitling him to travel. In the circumstances taking this to the Magistrates isn't going to do them any favours and whilst the offence would seem to be complete the OP should be able to make ECR look pretty foolish.

Coupon-mad

Poorgirl54, don't pay, follow everyone's advice.

It seems they are trying to scare you but it's a civil matter so they would have to convince a County Court judge that you owe them money. Clearly you don't so I suspect they'll fold if you write more letters as suggested by LivingTheDream.

poorgirl-54

so my response back to IRCAS do i state:

a) i will be taking you to court

b) or send them a court letter?

how do i actually take someone to court ?

poorgirl-54

i'd just like to say thank you to everyone for your kind and useful advice, in helping me with this situation

taffy056

poorgirl-54 wrote: »

so my response back to IRCAS do i state:

a) i will be taking you to court

b) or send them a court letter?

how do i actually take someone to court ?

You don't take them to court, you just inform that they will have to if they proceed, the posts above basically tell you what to do, and what to send them.

Livingthedream

poorgirl-54 wrote: »

so my response back to IRCAS do i state:

a) i will be taking you to court

b) or send them a court letter?

how do i actually take someone to court ?

Neither, just send them a letter saying you disagree with their judgement and are happy for them to take it to court.

Then wait and see what happens, one of the following will happen;
1. You get another letter saying 'on second thoughts we've decided to approve your appeal'
2. You will get a small claims court summons.

Just remember to send a carbon copy of the letter to East Coast as well.

Hadeon

poorgirl-54 wrote: »

Heres the update..............
So i sent IRCAS a letter explaining i paid for the ticket £14.50 and the ticket machine didn’t produce the tickets for the journey which i had purchased. I collected the single journey ticket from London Kings Cross, and for travelling from Leeds to London, on the return leg of my journey. With the letter i attached copies of the 2 tickets the machine did produce; the reservation ticket and a coupon ticket which the machine produced. I also attached copies of the email booking confirmation from EastCoast Trains, with details of credit transaction had taken place, and copies of booking from my East Coast account online.
IRCAS, sent me a letter that their investigating the case and will get back to me shortly and not make any further appeals.
And today IAS replied stating:
1.If you ‘claim’ London Kings Cross ticket machine didn’t print all your tickets relevant to your booking, it was your responsibility to check you had all the tickets before boarding.


......and then do what exactly if you find the machine had not printed the tickets & your train is about to depart; forfeit the money as well as making the specific journey you had already booked & paid for?

What marvellous practical advice (not) from IRCAS under the circumstances.

I wonder even in the event that you had noticed before boarding & then been obliged to purchase another ticket at full-price on the day,(either at the ticket office or on the train) whether the cost would have been subsequently reimbused on application. Somehow, I very much doubt it. (see also bromsgrovebarrys post at #22 of this thread)


2.As a regular traveller you are aware this type of ticket is valid 2 part only.

Not quite sure exactly what is meant by this, but it smacks of arrogant presumption as well as irrelevance.


3.We must maintain consistency in assessments and its unfair on other passengers with similar circumstances to accept your appeal, whilst declining theirs.

Now this is interesting - it suggests that not only was your appeal not considered on the individual merits/circumstances of your particular case, but also also that no appeals appear to be upheld by IRCAS in any event. That is some appeals service!!


4.You must pay £166.50 before 14th October.


No you musn't, you have every right to challenge the claim, refuse to pay it & to defend against it in the small claims court should IRCAS choose to pursue, which as previously stated, I & others here, very much doubt they would.

Remember that you have overwhelming evidence that the journey you made was booked & paid for in advance & consequently ECR cannot possibly consider themselves to be disadvantaged & having suffered a financial loss.

Any civil action against you must surely be bound to fail.


I really don’t know what do.
Please can anyone help me, im desperate, this is really stressing me out.

As already suggested by everyone here, don't pay & continue to hold firm against these unreasonable bullies.

I second livingthedream in that you should be proactive & the advice in his post at #48 above.

It has been suggested earlier in the thread that IRCAS could choose to cancel the Unpaid Fare Notice & then proceed under the byelaw at a Magistrates Court for the criminal offence of 'failing to show a valid ticket'.

However, I again very much doubt that IRCAS would choose this route for several reasons, not the least of which is that there would be no financial advantage in their doing so.

Generally speaking, IRCAS would not be able to instigate criminal proceedings directly themselves.

The criminal prosecution agency in England & Wales is of course the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) who would consider the evidence & decide whether (or not) it would be appropriate to initiate formal criminal proceedings.
It would not be lost on the CPS that their is overwhelming evidence the OP had booked & paid for the journey & that IRCAS had discontinued the 'civil route'. They may even thus consider IRCAS's actions in seeking a criminal prosecution to be both frivolous & an abuse of process.

In arriving at their decision the CPS would also consider the 'public interest' factor and the likelihood of a succesful conviction on the evidence presented (both prosecution & defence).

Yes, ultimately this is an 'absolute' offence for which consequently there is no defence, no matter how reasonable the defence (sic) (mitigating circumstances) may be.

Nonetheless, IMHO, I doubt that the CPS would initiate criminal proceedings & in the unlikely event that they did, the appropriate probable result would be an absolute discharge with no costs awarded against the defendant. The court would probably also be critical of IRCAS & the CPS in bringing the prosecution in the first place.

poorgirl-54

....so a quick update and yes- its 6 months on im still fighting with them and its still not resolved.

As you suggested i sent them a letter saying i was happy to see them in court, and then they sent a letter back, saying they are looking into it. Then IRCAS sent me another letter stating i have to pay £166.50 by 30th Novemeber or they will take further action - which i haven't paid. And in the letter they wrote i must write to passenger focus and so they can put a case on my behalf and if they agree with them or me.

In the mean time i sent a letter to East Coast trains, they sent me a letter saying call us back- which i didnt.

So im back at square one, i dont want to pay the fine and i cannot pay it, i paid for the ticket and this is a never ending nightmare.

Any advice please ?

Stigy

Wow, I must have forgotten about this one!

Livingthedream wrote:

Remember were talking civil law and not criminal law.

This will introduce an element of doubt and in a civil law case, that's all that's needed to throw the case out. The Train companies' solicitors will know this and advice their clients accordingly.

You yourself introduced doubt by using the word 'potentially'

We're only talking civil law if the TOC choses to prosecute the unpaid UFN itself, and doesn't cancel it and use the Byelaws instead. I fail to see why anybody would prosecute a Civil case when they could prosecute for a Criminal one.

Livingthedream wrote: »

But luckily this bylaw is only used for true fare evaders, which I personally think the OP isn't and hopefully common sense will prevail.

No, if they're a true fare evader the Byelaws shouldn't enter the equation, and the offender should be prosecuted under S.5.3(a) Regulation of Railways Act 1889, whereby intention to avoid payment was ascertained at the time of the offence, and is punishable with a more hefty fine (typically £350 depending on means) and up to 3-months in prison for subsequent offences of the same nature. Byelaw 18.1 is a strict liability matter and the very fact that the person concerned couldn't show a ticket on demand is a completed offence under this byelaw. Remember, TOCs are under no obligation to bypass the byelaws with the use of UFNs, PFs or ticket sales, and where the staff member believes there might have been an offence committed, they can report the facts. I've seen many successful prosecutions using such a scenario (some factors do differ, but the principle is the same).

poorgirl-54 wrote: »

....so a quick update and yes- its 6 months on im still fighting with them and its still not resolved.

As you suggested i sent them a letter saying i was happy to see them in court, and then they sent a letter back, saying they are looking into it. Then IRCAS sent me another letter stating i have to pay £166.50 by 30th Novemeber or they will take further action - which i haven't paid. And in the letter they wrote i must write to passenger focus and so they can put a case on my behalf and if they agree with them or me.

In the mean time i sent a letter to East Coast trains, they sent me a letter saying call us back- which i didnt.

So im back at square one, i dont want to pay the fine and i cannot pay it, i paid for the ticket and this is a never ending nightmare.

Any advice please ?

I suggest you plead your case in court if you really don't want to pay up, as it seems they won't take no for an answer! Unfortunately, albeit unwittingly, you committed an offence. Some Magistrats don't like TOCs, so you might be lucky!

UFNs that remain unpaid also go to Magistrates' Court, as the UFN tends to be cancelled and the byelaw prosecuted instead. Bear in mind it's probably easier to prosecute an unpaid UFN than it is an unpaid Penalty Fare, because the UFN was solely the cost of a single journey, and not a penalty of any description. That being said, could a 5.3(a) RRA offence be proved? I'd hazard a guess "yes", but the byelaw will be easier to prosecute given the circumstances and lack of questioning.