Train Fare-No ticket fine - please help!

bromsgrovebarry

I had something similar happen to me with First Great Western. I ordered the tickets online and the return ticket of the journey was not printed. Despite proof of payment, FGW refused to reimburse me for the ticket I had to buy to get back home. All I got was a patronising letter telling me to take more care in future. Oh I will take more care, I will only use FGW if there is absolutely no alternative and I will never order tickets online again.

anewman

I would take the ignore and let it go to court whereby I would produce evidence of having purchased the tickets and evidence of having appealed. I can't see that any kind of judge would take any action against someone who has a) paid, b) exhausted the official appeals route. Why should the OP spend hours of their life agonising over sending letters and making phone calls, WHEN THEY ARE IN THE RIGHT.

So glad I don't use the trains any more. Seems more and more like they're trying to intentionally catch people out and be self-appointed Nazi's, just like the rogue PPC's and clampers out there.

Livingthedream

anewman wrote: »

WHEN THEY ARE IN THE RIGHT

Totally agree, the problem is the train company will try their best to extort money from the OP, if she doesn't challenge them they will treat her as a fare dodger and prosecute her under Railway Byelaw 18.1 (2005) cos at the time she had no valid ticket to travel on that train and there's no defence to that. I know its wrong, but the train companies' are very good at manipulating this bylaw to their advantage.

*Edit* having been updated by the OP @ #30, I feel that she has made every effort to prove that she is not a 'fare dodger' and therefore IMHO this Bylaw can't be enforced.

anewman wrote: »

So glad I don't use the trains any more. Seems more and more like they're trying to intentionally catch people out and be self-appointed Nazi's, just like the rogue PPC's and clampers out there.

Train companies' will say that they use Railway bylaws to protect themselves from serial fare dodgers, but IMHO in these hard times their using them to protect their share holders more.

anewman

Livingthedream wrote: »

Totally agree, the problem is the train company will try their best to extort money from the OP, if she doesn't challenge them they will treat her as a fare dodger and prosecute her under Railway Byelaw 18.1 (2005) cos at the time she had no valid ticket to travel on that train and there's no defence to that. I know its wrong, but the train companies' are very good at manipulating this bylaw to their advantage.

The term "vexatious litigant" comes to mind, although I guess that wouldn't make any difference if it is a criminal matter rather than a civil one.

Stigy

Livingthedream wrote: »

He got his Appeal his original fare back, basically 'wanting his cake and eat it' but if you don't ask? eh! , but send him a PM if you want more help.

If they do issue you with a final letter stating that they will take legal action if not paid, then you have 2 basic choices.
1. Pay up.
2. Write a letter back to IRCAS, East Coast and Passenger focus explaining your intentions to defend this in a court of law, with the defence that the East Coast fast ticket Machine 'malfunctioned' and you can prove by credit/debit card payment, your East Coasts online account that you purchased a ticket, also that you have the reservation ticket and receipt that you get from the machine (I hope you still have these??).

Understand this, option 2 runs the risk that they will take you to court, so only take this course if you understand the risks involved.

The receipt proves that the ticket was paid for and, potentially, issued. Unless definitive proof is obtained that the TVM malfunctioned, I fail to see how there's a defence....

Livingthedream

Stigy wrote: »

The receipt proves that the ticket was paid for and, potentially, issued. Unless definitive proof is obtained that the TVM malfunctioned, I fail to see how there's a defence....

Remember were talking civil law and not criminal law.

This will introduce an element of doubt and in a civil law case, that's all that's needed to throw the case out. The Train companies' solicitors will know this and advice their clients accordingly.

You yourself introduced doubt by using the word 'potentially'

Hadeon

Livingthedream wrote: »

Remember were talking civil law and not criminal law.

This will introduce an element of doubt and in a civil law case, that's all that's needed to throw the case out. The Train companies' solicitors will know this and advice their clients accordingly.

You yourself introduced doubt by using the word 'potentially'

Forgive me for correcting you but the level of proof in a civil case is 'on the balance of probabilities' and not 'reasonable doubt' which applies to criminal cases.

Livingthedream

Hadeon wrote: »

Forgive me for correcting you but the level of proof in a civil case is 'on the balance of probabilities' and not 'reasonable doubt' which applies to criminal cases.

No forgiveness is required, It seems that I have misplaced the words civil and criminal. But you statement made me think about this;

Civil Case
As is the opinion of other posters here, it would be difficult for the train company to win a civil case as 'on the balance of probabilities' and with evidence she bought a ticket.

Criminal Case
If the tickets machine had malfunctioned, it would be on the onus of the train company to prove it was working correctly and if they couldn't this would be 'reasonable doubt'

Right, I stand back slowly retreat and wait for the fireworks to go off.

poorgirl-54

Heres the update..............
So i sent IRCAS a letter explaining i paid for the ticket £14.50 and the ticket machine didn’t produce the tickets for the journey which i had purchased. I collected the single journey ticket from London Kings Cross, and for travelling from Leeds to London, on the return leg of my journey. With the letter i attached copies of the 2 tickets the machine did produce; the reservation ticket and a coupon ticket which the machine produced. I also attached copies of the email booking confirmation from EastCoast Trains, with details of credit transaction had taken place, and copies of booking from my East Coast account online.
IRCAS, sent me a letter that their investigating the case and will get back to me shortly and not make any further appeals.
And today IAS replied stating:
1.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]If you ‘claim’ London Kings Cross ticket machine didn’t print all your tickets relevant to your booking, it was your responsibility to check you had all the tickets before boarding.
2.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]As a regular traveller you are aware this type of ticket is valid 2 part only.
3.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]We must maintain consistency in assessments and its unfair on other passengers with similar circumstances to accept your appeal, whilst declining theirs.
4.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]You must pay £166.50 before 14th October.
I really don’t know what do.
Please can anyone help me, im desperate, this is really stressing me out.

poorgirl-54

I dont get is why did i get through the ticket barriers at Leeds station, with the ticket i had which wasnt valid ?

oh and normally yes i always get 2 tickets - i guess thats why i didnt notice, but i received a 2 tickets a coupon ticket and a reservation ticket, so on technicality its 3 tickets, which i wasnt expecting.............does this make a case?