'What religion are you?' poll discussion

Fifer

adrian_clark wrote: »

If you are looking for blind faith look no further than the theory that something could come from nothing.

As stated above, that's not faith but a working (and evolving) hypothesis which will be mdofied as and when evidence dictates.

adrian_clark wrote: »

If you are looking for historically based evidential faith look no further than the life, works and person of Jesus Christ. This is not a disconnected capricious god of caricature but a connected God who came into human history because he loves us, his people, created in his image.

Or a charismatic preacher with delusions?

adrian_clark wrote: »

Have you never wondered why you are so infinitely different from animals?

As ringo says, we aren't.

adrian_clark wrote: »

Have you ever thought how it would be if you really are made in the image and likeness of God, the father of the fatherless, the orphans, widowed, hungry, lonely, depressed and dispossessed? This is the God who loves us, and who will relentlessly pursue you even while you still reject him, just as Jesus was rejected, spat upon and abused all the way to the cross.

That's blind faith.

k.o.d

Adrian, why are not all of the letters and scrolls available to everyone? Is it because a lot of the scrolls do not tally with the bible as it stands? Is it because they do not back up and actually contradict what the bible states?
Science continually refines itself once the truth has been found.
The church continually hides itself in case the truth is ever found.
The bones of St. Paul are a good point, would you care to explain what was found when the 'true' bones of St. Paul were checked?

tbourner

adrian_clark wrote: »

There can only be one truth.

Trouble is we don't know what that truth is. Science is working towards finding out, whether it ever gets there or not who knows. If it ever does prove the existence of god then yippee, I'm sure 99% of aethiests will go along with it, if it disproves it I wonder whether the religions will be open minded enough to do the same.

adrian_clark

k.o.d wrote: »

Adrian, why are not all of the letters and scrolls available to everyone? Is it because a lot of the scrolls do not tally with the bible as it stands? Is it because they do not back up and actually contradict what the bible states?
Science continually refines itself once the truth has been found.
The church continually hides itself in case the truth is ever found.
The bones of St. Paul are a good point, would you care to explain what was found when the 'true' bones of St. Paul were checked?

These are good questions thanks on the back of an intriguing conversation. Here we are sharing our faiths, that being those claims on life's deepest meanings that we are living our lives by. Many here depend on science and culturally received wisdom and live in the hope that one day how something came from nothing will be explained. I tried an experiment at home. I imagined there was nothing and then something coming from it and you know I struggled.

From our different worldviews there will be always be a degree of tension as I come at the conversation secure in the knowledge that Jesus is alive, He loves me, and is the third person of the one trinitarian creator God. Without the physical resurrection of Jesus then the behaviour of the early church makes no sense. These were faithful, law abiding, God fearing Jews with nothing to gain from declaring Jesus was Lord unless it was true. I tell you there is some intriguing evidence available for even the most ardent atheist.

I cannot answer all your questions but I can tell you that mankind has routinely screwed things up. The Old Testament is mostly about man's disobedience, obstinacy, cruelty and foolishness with God having to regularly step in and sort out the mess man creates. So certain churches have made claims for having relics that prove to be nonsense, take a look at the mess of the medieval church of Rome. And there are other scrolls, Christian literature and church history that is not in the Bible. However, for the Christian, the Bible we have is God breathed and good for teaching. It's authoritative and a faithful report of God pursuing man in love. The fact that 66 books by over 40 authors written over a period of around 3000 years fits together is a remarkable testimony to the fact that it cannot be the work of man. Can you imagine a committee or a group of men working together in such unity?

tbourner

adrian_clark wrote: »

These were faithful, law abiding, God fearing Jews with nothing to gain from declaring Jesus was Lord unless it was true.

No, they said it because they believed it, the same as you do, it doesn't make it true though.

adrian_clark wrote: »

The fact that 66 books by over 40 authors written over a period of around 3000 years fits together is a remarkable testimony to the fact that it cannot be the work of man. Can you imagine a committee or a group of men working together in such unity?

Are you saying 40 people wrote the same thing without any knowledge of the others? As that would be the only way it would be anything special. A number of people with the same beliefs and having heard the same stories, writing a similar style over a period of time is nothing at all, in fact I would expect it. The fact is every single word of any religious book was written by a man, not a god, and therefore I cannot buy into it with my entire life.

adrian_clark

tbourner wrote: »

No, they said it because they believed it, the same as you do, it doesn't make it true though.


Are you saying 40 people wrote the same thing without any knowledge of the others? As that would be the only way it would be anything special. A number of people with the same beliefs and having heard the same stories, writing a similar style over a period of time is nothing at all, in fact I would expect it. The fact is every single word of any religious book was written by a man, not a god, and therefore I cannot buy into it with my entire life.

The early church was made up from faithful Jews. They had the law and the prophets in which they believed. They would not abandon their religion, social support structures, and tradition in such large numbers without evidence and convictions. The truth is not invented it is discovered.

[Deleted User]

adrian_clark wrote: »

The early church was made up from faithful Jews. They had the law and the prophets in which they believed. They would not abandon their religion, social support structures, and tradition in such large numbers without evidence and convictions. The truth is not invented it is discovered.

Basically, he was the first bloke who managed to figure out how to form a religious cult. Probably very carismatic, saying everything everyone in an oppressed culture wanted to hear. Judism doesn't ever go out to 'convert' anyone, so it was probably quite unexpected. A good show man, managed to persuade a decent number of people he was the messiah (and not just 'a very naughty boy').

Heck, if the scientologists managed it in the modern era, can you imagine an effective evangelical pitch aimed at a 2000 year old civilisation?

From http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_messiah3.htm

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:
A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

Also, the messiah was meant to be a descendant of King David. Now, since he technically had no father, that means he COULD NOT BE THE MESSIAH.

Heck, i'm more qualified as a Levite (and thus, a direct descendant of King David). And no, the second coming doesn't count. There's no biblical basis for the second coming

/Waits for Christianised-comeback..

Soubrette

adrian_clark wrote: »

If you are looking for blind faith look no further than the theory that something could come from nothing. If you are looking for historically based evidential faith look no further than the life, works and person of Jesus Christ. This is not a disconnected capricious god of caricature but a connected God who came into human history because he loves us, his people, created in his image.

Have you never wondered why you are so infinitely different from animals? Have you ever thought how it would be if you really are made in the image and likeness of God, the father of the fatherless, the orphans, widowed, hungry, lonely, depressed and dispossessed? This is the God who loves us, and who will relentlessly pursue you even while you still reject him, just as Jesus was rejected, spat upon and abused all the way to the cross.

Christians have exactly the same problem - is God forever or did he come from something? Or shall we just fudge the issue and say he's outside the laws of physics?

How are we infinitely different from animals?

It is a factor in some kinds of schizophrenia where the sufferer believes that s/he is a supreme being controlling the world and people around them.

I take it God is relentlessly pursuing us in the form of you today

Soubrette

adrian_clark wrote: »

The early church was made up from faithful Jews. They had the law and the prophets in which they believed. They would not abandon their religion, social support structures, and tradition in such large numbers without evidence and convictions. The truth is not invented it is discovered.

And yet, God abandoned their religion and set up a new convenant.

Sounds more like people machination than an eternal all-knowing God expecting his people to abandon their religion, the one he set them up with in the first place.

k.o.d

To put another twist on it, I do believe in the spirituality of man.
But not what the church dictates to us and not the compendium of stories that is the bible.