Log burner - to line or not to line?

hethmar

A couple of decades ago we found those who solely sold burners would often tell customers that no liner was needed simply to avoid the loss of a sale. This seemed to lessen after a number of particularly bad unlined thatched house fires in this area and a number of stove businesses going under.

On the contrary, my OH will often tell people NOT to line if they have open fires and there are no problems with their flueways to save money and the disruption in the house. However not everyone will maintain or run their stove correctly. And to answer the OPs other question - yes, every day we get people ring up who have had stoves fitted in unlined chimneys and have either had chimney fires or their flues are blocked with resin deposits and their sweeps have condemned them using their stoves.

And yes, I think after 30 years of experience, as with my OH, then I have learnt a little more than you and your one chimney lining Badger which apparently caught fire - it shouldnt have if correctly installed, maintained and correct fuel used, but there you are - no doubt you contacted your installer about it as I think you will find your warranty is now obsolete.

My OH has no interest whatsoever in this thread - of which he is totally unaware

A._Badger

I suggest, after reading Hethmar's rant, readers go back and read what she actually wrote in response to the OP's comment. I'm sure people are quite capable of making up their own minds .

maisiescamp

My Mum's house had an open fire in which her and her partner converted to a log burner about 9 years ago. In Oct last year she died in her bed due to carbon monoxide poisoning from the fire.

The cause of the carbon monoxide leak was a range of factors but one of those things was the absence of a lining in the chimney.

It is better to be safe than sorry.

hethmar

Cerrol, OP, so very sorry that your first thread has become diverted (Im afraid it tends to happen). What I would say is question both these blokes and get yourself another three quotes aswell. Bear in mind that this is a very busy part of the year now (we are virtually booked up to the end of November although we do tend to be busier than most) so dont hang about getting some more people in. Dont be afraid to ask questions and remember that flashy suits and brochures dont mean a lot except that the bloke quoting will probably never get his hands dirty and others will be sent to do the job. Its often best to get the man who is going to do the actual work quoting. We are quite often called in after other companies' work force have abandoned a job, literally, because they dont have the experience to complete it successfully if they came up against obstructions (or, probably worse, they do complete it in a very poor/dangerous way). So the small family firm is often the best choice.

If you are capable, or have capable menfolk able to go on a roof - you could line the chimney yourself. You just need to get local Building Control inspector out before and after the job - he can sign it off like we do as being safe.

Good luck what ever you decide and I hope you have a lovely warm winter Oh thats another thing, get your wood sorted now - ash is the best wood to burn.

Maisie, thats awful - so sorry to hear that. The fact is, the (much hated by Badger) HETAS regulations came in to being due to the number of fires and deaths from carbon monoxide. And the system isnt perfect, there are still rogue traders but its the best we have and certainly better than say 30 years back.

A._Badger

hethmar wrote: »

And here is my pennysworth (the local chap is the one who used to own a wood stove business?)

There you go again - the heavy emphasis on 'used'. Either you just don't know you're doing it, or you are being sly.

This is someone the OP has met, who is local and who, apparently, has 30 years experience doing the job.

And then we have the choice little : "And can you confirm in your previous reply that you promoted the services of a man who was incapable of doing a correct smoke test?"

Incapable? Does the OP say anywhere that he was incapable? No, what the OP actually wrote was: ".the second person who quoted said he could come back and do this if I was concerned so I think I might take him up on it"

I'd stick with typing up your quotations if I were you, Hethmar. Verbatim would be best. Not embroidering them as you go.

markandkate

Poor Cerol all you did was ask a simple question and unleashed a load of nonsense which is of no help at all to you. what a shame it is that people using these forum waste so much time and energy when you only asked a simple question.

I cannot tell you whether to line your chiney or not, yes chimneys have been round for a long time but so have things like small pox and gradually through health and safety we have ( some would say unnecessarily) developed rules and regulations which are mostly there to protect us.

Much depends on whether you can afford to have your chimney lined. Our installer did not sell stoves and so we chose the one that we wanted and bought it on the internet and he fitted it for us. He charged us £1200 last August to fit the liner and the fire We paid a further £550 for the fire.

Now that we have paid for a liner I have kind of forgotten about it. My OH is an engineer and HATES health and safety and we did have long debates about this issue.

We found that we saved about £50 per month on our fuel bills and love having the stove. I even put washing on the airer at night which uses the heat after we have gone to bed and it has changed much of the way we do things. I would not be without it.

Apparently my OH has tried to convince me that there is another regulation that says that if you have a fire you have to have a chain saw, preferablly an electric and a petrol one. Oh and a band saw, and a log splitter and a log store and and and. Did I say I'd saved money!!

welda

Cerrol, I did my own install a coupler year back, I had to line chimney as it was breached (three stacks on gable) so I had no choice.

I can see the wisdom of lining, if there is a chimney fire, then it is contained within the liner, well away from stone work, also easier to clean, lighting up is easier too, less area for heat build up = speedy draw of fire.

There have been lots of mentions re; tar, tar can also be drawn through the stonework, staining outside of building (which will not go away easy) in France this staining is common if stove/flue is not maintained properly.

We all wish to save money and, personally I'd bite the bullet and include liner, my thoughts only BTW!

crphillips

Cerol.......i'm a HETAS installer and here is my opinion. We run a very successful installation company and my mother in-law runs a stove shop. We have a top notch reputation with around 90% of our work coming in by recommendation. I sweep the flues of the majority of the stoves we installed year after year after year so we must be doing something right. I'm passionate about stoves and put a lot of effort into improving our service and my knowledge every day.

What i've found about companies......many will wing it and not fit a liner....this is usually because they're not keen on getting up on roofs or just not very good at their job and don't have the skills required to re-line 500 flues a year or they're so money hungry with no pride in their work that they'll do anything to make some cash.

If the chimney isn't to be lined then a proper smoke test MUST be carried out like a previous poster mentioned.

My general rule (not HETAS's) is that if the flue is unlined (stone or brick) then it requires a liner. If the flue is clay, concrete, thermocrete or pumice lined and smoke tests okay then it doesn't require lining providing a watertight and gas tight connection can be made to the appliance. Due to how builders build chimneys, 99% of the time it is not possible to connect to them with a clay liner adapter in a water tight manner and a stainless flexi liner is required. This is only my opinion that i have gained from experience. When i first started in the industry i didn't line flues as i wasn't keen on the roof work but i started to get warranty calls ranging from water/tar dripping out of flues, stove difficult to light, glass blackening, smoke coming into the room...........i soon decided that i couldn't work like this and the only way i could ensure a quality job and run a business i was proud of was to ensure the flues integrity.............liners became a must for me.

My customers are more than welcome to go to the next man if they don't want their flue lining. We have a local outfit near us that have 20yrs experience in the trade. Until recently they've been fitting stoves and occasionally liners and are completely illegal as they're not HETAS Registered. They also have the contract with the local council and carry out all of their solid fuel installations and servicing......a couple of years ago a mother and daughter got taken to hospital with CO poisoning and smoke inhalation.........they're recently installed appliance was condemned along with another 3 on the same street. Just because a company has been around for a long time doesn't make them competent.

There are huge benefits to liners and i know Badger will contradict me in some way but i do not bull people with rubbish just to get a sale......if i were purely out to make money then i wouldn't walk away from so many jobs every year when the client wants me to do a 'bodge job'. I'm with Hethmar on this one (and usually are). She knows her stuff and i can tell from her knowledge that her husband has pride in what he does. If my wife knew half as much about stoves and flues i'd be very happy.

This is not the place to get advice on lining a flue though........the forum is all about saving money............your not likely to get an opinion that isn't biased on the side of saving money and then there's the radical Badger who has an opinion on everything he isn't qualified in..........talk to friends, neighbours and family who have a stove and find out what they think. Check out this forum and see what people here think about flue liners. It has a good range of intelligent users who's emphasis isn't on saving money.

http://www.thegreenlivingforum.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=21&sid=18845ddb70c8c948489e756b63c8f1a1

Buy cheap and buy twice is okay with a washing machine or similar but there may not be a second chance when pumping deadly gases through the centre of your house.

welda

I thought my reply was sensible and unbiased, no??

hethmar

For the sake of the poor OP's sanity, I have cut down a lot of my replies which Badger begged and that are of no help to them.

AND CRPhillips, I have been recommended to use the ignore button :T which I didnt know existed. You can make chosen people just seem to disappear from all threads, ................ and never see their posts :j