Free solar panel discussion

Mcfi5dhc

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Well, yes, that was my point too. Ok, you think it's me talking crap, I think it's you. I look at the issue from the viewpoint of a National Grid professional engineer, and you as an owner who doesn't know the difference between energy and power.

The world is full of amazingly efficient generation technologies with amazing claims, especially when they are 'environmental'. Unfortunately, just like the Warwick wind study (which people may google if interested), many people effectively get duped by massively exagerated claims and totally unrealistic expectations, usually originated from PV sales staff and others with a financial interest.

Of course you can boil a kettle with a 2.2kw capacity panel if connected to the mains too, but then you can boil it with no panel when connected to the mains. Obviously, the point being made is that you can't boil a 2.2kw kettle purely from a 2.2kw capacity panel in the UK (maybe on the equator at midday you could, with a new panel, clean and correctly specced and installed etc etc).

I've never said you boil a kettle direct from the panels. You need your panels to be connected to the invertor, which then goes to the generation meter, consumer unit, etc etc.

The rating of the panels is irrelevant (though by the way, you can't get a 2.2kw panel - surprised you didn't know this being a grid engineer), the rating of the system is the important thing. And, if you have a system rated at 2.2kwp, when its nice and sunny, you'll get 2.2 units per hour pretty much all the time. If you had eight hours of glorious sunshine, you'd generate 8*2.2 - 17.6 units (or kwh)

I repeat, I have no financial interest in solar.

And my panels have never been cleaned, they have been up for more than two years, and they still hit their peak regularly, and for many hours at a time

beedydad

Most people have not got what the deal is all about!

Yes, as has been clearly debated here and elsewhere by installing solar PV through an MCS qualified installer you will be intitled to FIT. FIT does come in 3 parts - again fully debated and hopefully clarifed for most.

However,, the real debate is should you buy outright or "rent" off companies - such as mentioned here.

This is solely a business transaction as to whether you as the householder makes money out of it and how much.
Or does someone else take the profit - and potentially the long term risk - again some have mentioned issues such as PV improvments coming along over next few years (there has been talk about PV efficiancy going up to 40% - from at best 18%-20% at present - but will be expensive for the foreseeable future!!)

Yes - it is dressed up as satisfying environmental issues - which clearly pricks on some consciences - but again it has been debated as to what, in the overall scheme of things does a few solar PV panels do to the Countries carbon reduction obligations?

Anyway the main thrust of this response is that people should get a better grip to financials and making money for themselves.

These so called "free" solar kits clogging up your own roof space should actually be rented to them at a price just as if you are renting a house/flat/car/tele/mobile phones, etc.

What they are getting people to be diverted by is that you will get free electricity - but again as has been debated this part is an unknown and will vary not only each day but each part of the day. The energy generated may be useable - if you are sensible enough to dovetail your useage to match the timing of the PV production - if not you are the looser! - as you will not reap any reduction in your bills!

However, without doubt the PV system will generate electricity probably most of the year and the FIT pays out on generated electricty at the 36/41p rate. Therefore the company giving you the freebee is probably in a known income/profit position - I think somewhere a company has stated by fine tuning suitable candidates with the optimum positioning they will generate 2.8kwh from the 3.3kwh PV kit - therefore they know what they will earn.

Whereas, the householder/customer only makes a saving on what they use NOT what they generate (unless you go down the debatable route of batteries!)

My solution is that to you should RENT your roof space to the company to make a sensible income/profit for yourselves. People should work out that otherwise the company makes the money - very easily (with some risk - but not a lot!) whereas you are left with expensive kit on your roof making pennies in comparison!!!!

Charge them at least £100 per annum - may be more - then you will know with certainty you are getting something

Regards

HotRod

The debate so far is very interesting, and I'm keen to either somehow come up with the money to buy a system, otherwise to go for one of the ASG type schemes.

Has anyone found or have a comparison of current pricing including installation? Tesco's site lists their prices in an easy to digest format, if we could find similar information from other MCS approved providers it'd be easier to narrow down the best prices. There'll be differences in terms of warranty, servicing, but itd be a good start....

andycopland

Imo the whole kettle discussion misses the point somewhat as nobody boils a kettle for an hour anyway. I think the overall financial picture is more relevant to anyone considering the merits of buying or renting a pv system.

I had £12k which returned (what turned out to be) a feeble investment income over the last 7 years. I took out the money and bought solar panels which were installed in February, before renting was an option.

Last month I got my first FIT cheque from BG for £424 for Q2 (April to Jun).

I also saved £65 on my electricity bill, which came from the electricity that I made and used directly, replacing units that I would previously have had to buy.

On top of that it turns out that I am in the lucky position of having an old meter which reverses and so I also saved a further £65 there too. I will of course lose this element when they update my meter to a smartmeter some time in the future.

Now admittedly Q2 was exceptionally 'light', but already in Q3 the panels have earned £134 and on top of that I have 'saved' another £40 in bills. Allowing for a winter fall off, I'm estimating my total return at the end of 12 months will be at least 11%.

My system stats are
Panels 12 x Sanyo
Total Installed Capacity 2.58kWp
Annual BG metered usage 2009 - 6900kWh
BG metered usage 2010 April 1st to date - 694kWh
Total financial return to date £785

As an ex power station employee I am delighted to have generated over 1.5 MWh of my own to date. Oh, and I've saved nearly a ton of carbon dioxide, so I'm feeling greener too.

I think the house will be more saleable with the system installed. I think it will be attractive for a potential buyer to know that the house is earning a £1000+ annual income which is not taxable and is inflation proofed. Oh and, size for size, the electricity bills are cheaper too.

How much have I added to the value of the house? £12k? £6k? £0? I don't know. I guess I'll only find out when I sell it. Having discussed it with estate agents, I do feel that amongst buyers there is an appreciation of the value of the energy efficiency of a house which will continue to grow.

I feel I'm in a no lose situation. Unlike previous comments (sorry, I'm not sure how to embed them) if there is a dramatic cost reduction in the price of panels in the future, well good luck to those whose systems cost less. It makes no difference to me because the value of the FIT is so good for early takers, the investment stands up by itself.

How secure is the FIT scheme over 25 years? Totally. The Govt has committed to international energy saving targets, and the FIT scheme costs them nothing at all towards achieving this. It is funded by the energy companies who in turn, and in agreement with the Govt, will increase their basic charges marginally. The FIT scheme is based on the German model which has been operating for around 5 years. As a result, Germany, with 900,000 households, has the highest installed capacity of domestic solar pv worldwide. Cash savvy Germans are installing pv as a serious alternative to secure investments returning considerably less in the money markets.

As you can see, my vote was to purchase, and still would be now.

Mcfi5dhc

andycopland wrote: »

Imo the whole kettle discussion misses the point somewhat as nobody boils a kettle for an hour anyway. I think the overall financial picture is more relevant to anyone considering the merits of buying or renting a pv system.

Hi Andy

An excellent 1st post.

As anyone who has been reading this thread will know, I was half of the kettle team - sorry for this, I was just making a point

One of the reasons for this though, which has been overlooked by most people, is me talking about smart meters or export meters.

Lets ignore you and me, we paid our money, we'll profit from it (actually I might not, I am one of the solar pioneers who did it a bit too early, but anyway...)

Don't get me wrong, free solar panels are great, 100% great - if your meter spins backwards. The companies are offering up savings of £100 or £200 a year off your bill which I agree with if you have a backwards spinning meter.

I urge people to check how much they will actually save if they have an export meter fitted though, which at some point in the future, they will have no choice.

In the kettle example, with a backwards spinning meter, a freebie customer would be 20p better off compared to the same customer where they have an export meter. Continue this through the day, could add up to a lot. Yes you can juggle your applicances, but this could get a bit tedious after 10 years or so.

Smart meters are already in legislation, we must have them in the future, and they don't go backwards.

People read "they generate 20 units per day in summer" - if you managed to use 3 or 4, you'd be doing well. Customers now are seeing significant savings - bet they don't once their meter is changed.

Spies

So you need an old style mechanical meter to make real savings?

Mcfi5dhc

Spies wrote: »

So you need an old style mechanical meter to make real savings?

Yes

(my personal opinion anyway)

beedydad

As I have informed before I have just picked p this article from US stamford Uni - very interesting indeed.

This is why people should be careful to enage in long term commitments such as these so called "free" solar PV kits over 25 years!

Why? when this could be happening within next decade!

Go to: news.stanford.edu/news/2010 then look up: August//new-solar-method

I am not allowed to show this as a link so have split it up to show where to look up!

Seriously very interesting
Regards

[Deleted User]

shecos wrote: »

I have electricity only in my bungalow and heating is with night storage heaters. If you only pay for electricity after dark, obviously night storage heaters would not save anything - however, could the storage heaters be changed to heat up in the daytime only instead of at night?

Check your electricity tariff. You may have a tariff giving reduced charge off-peak, and a timer on the supply so your storage heaters only warm up off-peak. In theory there is no reason why they should not heat up when the sun is shining and the panels are giving output but you would need a good electrician to install a control system. It would need the output from the solar panels to feed the heaters during winter. No point warming them up in Summertime. How does your present system decide whether the next night is going to be cold? I hope you do not burn electricity and then lie in bed uncomfortably hot. Storage heaters and hot water tanks are a good way of storing surplus energy from solar panels but Government has not got round to encouraging such systems. It usually takes politicians 10 years to realise how to implement scientific developments. Check back in 10 years.

andycopland

Spies, also be aware that there are two types of mechanical meter out there. Older ones that genuinely spin backwards and others (later models) which include a ratchet mechanism. In the later models the wheel reverses but the ratchet prevents the digit cylinders from reversing, so it can appear to be going backwards whilst the reading actually stays the same.