Free solar panel discussion

Jon_Tiffany

Are there really 5 power stations coming offline in the next 3 years? Do you have any more info, I thought it was more like ten years before they come to end of life. Quite a concern really, as my understanding is that if you need power stations quickly then gas powered is the way to go - but we are having to import more gas every year, and those Russians do like like to turn off the supply....

albyota

serious or what?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/eu-gives-power-stations-until-2020-to-meet-emissions-rules-2021093.html

and this

Nuclear power stations:

• Dungeness B Power Station 1080MW (predicted closure 2018)
• Hartlepool Power Station 1210MW (predicted closure 2014)
• Heysham Power Station Stage 1 1200MW (predicted closure 2014)
• Heysham Power Station Stage 2 1200MW (predicted closure 2023)
• Hinkley Point B Power Station 1260MW (predicted closure 2011)
• Oldbury Power Station 470MW (predicted closure 2010)
• Sizewell B Power Station 1190MW (predicted closure 2035)

Coal-fired power stations:

• Cottam Power Station 2008MW, EDF
• Didcot A Power Station 1958MW, RWE, co-fires gas and biofuel (to close by end 2015)
• Drax power station 3870MW, Drax Group, co-fires biofuel
• Eggborough Power Station 1960MW, British Energy
• Ferrybridge Power Station 1995MW, SSE, co-fires biofuel (units 1 and 2 to close by end 2015)
• Fiddlers Ferry Power Station 1961MW, SSE, co-fires biofuel
• Ironbridge Power Station (or Buildwas Power Station) 970MW, E.On (to close by end 2015)
• Kingsnorth power station 1940MW, E.On, co-fires oil (A station to close by end 2015)
• Lynemouth Power Station 420MW, Alcan, co-fires biofuel
• Ratcliffe-on-Soar Power Station 2000MW, E.On
• Rugeley Power Station 1006MW, IP
• Tilbury Power Station 1038MW, RWE, co-fires oil (to close by end 2015)
• West Burton Power Station 1972MW, EDF
• Wilton Power Station 197MW, SembCorp Industries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_England

saintstan

Cant believe it took 10 pages for the power station debate to really start. IMO, the UK energy gap is very close to crisis point.

Anyway, not teh point of my post...

I've been considering PV for a number of years now, but aside from the statistical and financial details involved in the schemes under debate here, I have some technical queries:
My house is approx 10 degrees off being south facing on the SW direction. My south and west faces are almost completely exposed, i.e. there are no properties which shadow over mine in those directions due to my property being atop a hill. I dont know the exact figures, but guess I have in excess of 50sqm of roof area available by virtue of having...

A FLAT ROOF.

One of the reasons I've been considering PV includes the fact that my roof is nearing teh end of it's life and I've been looking into replacement options. One of the considerations is that a PV construction would provide protection for teh roof underneath, thus prolonging the lifespan of any roof material installed.

(I'm getting to the point...). Obviously with a flat roof, I have no attic space, so simple loft insulation isn't a simple solution, so my house hasnt very good green credentials, plus it's ~50's construction so isnt very efficient.
The questions are:
1) what are my options for a system like this with a flat roof;
2) would any of these installers touch it as a project;
3) Would I be eligible for this scheme if I paid for this myself and had it installed through one of the accreddited installers.

Doing some fag-packet sums, cost of a new roof c. £10k (required anyway), cost of PV system c. £15k, say £5k for contingency = total outlay of £30k. Say lifespan of both roof and PV system is 25 years, could it work that this could be cost neutral over 25 yrs ?

The flat roof installation is obviously the biggest hurdle here.

Interested to hear thoughts on this.

Thanks.

albyota

you would need to install like this, so you would need to get the roof insulated and repaired first.

better off getting the system installed by MCS installer and reap the FIT's

grahamc2003

albyota wrote: »

So if this is from a professional National Grid Engineer.............No wonder the UK is in such a mess, the grid is going to fall over, If the national grid did their sums correctly and invested the huge profits into cleaner power stations....we would not be needed to clean it up with Solar PV.
with upto 5 or more power stations coming offline in the next 3 years and more to follow and replacements 10 years away.....someone need to be concerned.

Not sure where to start with your misunderstandings mate - but NGC doesn't build powerstations, it just runs the HV grid, ensuring supply equals demand at all times (which you probably don't appreciate is a very complex and technically challenging). Still, it's nice to know that we are appreciated for giving you the ability to plug in electrical devices 24/7 virtually all the time except exceptional conditions.

You're right to be critical of a system which will produce a shortfall in generating capacity in a few years when stations will be taken down, including a few Nuclear stations. But that is nothing to do with NGC, who just have to manage as best they can with the resources available. Obviously, they are asked to advise the government, but energy policy is run by political imperative rather than engineering advice (and if ngc advice had been followed, we wouldn't be facing almost certain power cuts in the years ahead if the station closing plan is followed). You can blame the badly named 'environmental' pressure groups for opposing Nuclear build over the last 35 years for the looming powercuts.

Anyhow, solar panels will make no difference whatsoever to the powercuts. They will initially come at periods of high demand, which is the period around 5pm/6pm during winter, when the total solar panel output will be zero.

At best, solar panels displace cheap and highly efficient daytime generation, and replace zero high cost, higher emission generation. While they have an element of environmental benefit (at an extraordinary high cost though) the warm 'green' feeling many seem to get from their PVs is largely misplaced in reality.

Poosmate

I've just worked out my electric bill (averaging over the last 27 months). It works out to £372 per year.

Am I right then in thinking, that if I had solar panels fitted and didn't change the way I use my electiricity, that the FiTs payments would cover the bills and I'd have some left over?

Plus, I'd be exporting most of the electric generated during weekdays as I work full time. I wouldn't set timers for midday because I don't know if a big black cloud is going to shroud my house at any time during the day. I'd be really miffed if I set the timer on a glorious morning only for one of those dark angry summer storms to appear half way through the day! No. The plan of action would be to use the washing machine at the weekends when it's sunny so I'd save a few bob using "free" electric then.

So I wouldn't be expecting my electric bills to reduce by much if anything but I'd be relying on the FiTs and export fee to cover the payback.

Is that reasonable?

Would the payback be quicker?

I have a new digital meter (fitted in Jan 2008) so it wouldn't run backwards.

Is it more profitable to export as much generated electric than to try to use as much as possible (given that that would be hard being at work)? It's got to be hasn't it?

Actually, if I changed my tariff to a more suitable one (I'm on economy 7 atm and haven't been making full use of it, I've been naughty and have been using my washing machine before the night rate kicks in!), so I do use more electric on the more expensive day rates.

Sorry, I'm rambling, it's late and I need to get to bed!

Anyone elses thoughts would be appreciated.

Poo

John_Pierpoint

paulhereford wrote: »

I am very interested in Solar but don't have the space or aspect to achieve it at the moment plus planning permission would be a problem....crazy.

Here's to a move to a bigger property so that this can be achieved.

What would be your planning problem?

quoia

Poosmate wrote: »

<snip>
Is it more profitable to export as much generated electric than to try to use as much as possible (given that that would be hard being at work)? It's got to be hasn't it?

</snip>
Poo

ONLY if you ALWAYS export more than 50% of the quantity that you generate and then claim the 3p per kwh for every of kwh that you do export - of course to do that you will need an export meter fitted to measure this amount.

As it stands IT DOESN'T MATTER on the PRESUMED export rates.
If your system generates 2000kWh in a quarterly period then it's taken that you use 1000kwh yourself and export 1000kWh - for which you will get £30 (1000 x 3p)

Without exact metering it is just accepted you use 50% and export 50%

But if you use 1500kWh and only export 500kwh you will still get £30

SO USE AS MUCH AS YOU CAN !!!

Edit Update.

In the above 2000kWh per quarter example, of course IF (and that's a big IF - as is exporting NONE of it) you could export ALL that you generated and "prove it" with an export meter you could get £30 more than the assumed 50% ......

BUT that's YOU SELLING YOUR ELECTRICITY for just 3p per kWh

REMEMBER in those conditions every time you need a kWh to watch the telly, make a cup of tea, light a room etc. etc. you will be buying it for at LEAST TWICE the price even on Economy 7, and more likely 4 times the price (12p per kWh) outside of the E7 window

John_Pierpoint

Jon_Tiffany wrote: »

This is where the debate comes in - do you take the free panels or buy them yourself?

Here are a few things to consider:

If you have debt or a mortgage you should go for free panels and focus on repaying your debt first. Use the money saved on your bills to pay extra off your debts.

If you have the cash and it is currently getting you a poor return then consider buying the panels yourself. If you buy panels with your own money there are some very important points you should consider:

Your money is locked in, if your money is in a savings account you can get your hands on it if needed. With the solar panels you have to wait around 8 years to get it back, and that's just your capital which is now worth less due to inflation.

If a component fails outside of warranty then your payback period will be greatly extended.

My opinion is that with the country having been mortgaged to foreigners by an unholy alliance of politicians & bankers, inflation is the only way to get off the hook - as it was to get rid of the WWII debts. I think the massive numbers of people who have invested in National Savings inflation proofed certificates agree with me.
All the calculations of "I can get x% on my savings" are meaningless. The reality is that at the moment everyone's savings are costing them about 3% due to inflation (and that is before the 2.5% increase next January , when the VAT goes up).
The National Savings investment is no longer available. This FiT offer does at least offer a real return.

beedydad wrote: »

As I have informed before I have just picked p this article from US Stamford Uni - very interesting indeed.

This is why people should be careful to engage in long term commitments such as these so called "free" solar PV kits over 25 years!

Why? when this could be happening within next decade!

Go to: news.stanford.edu/news/2010 then look up: August//new-solar-method

I am not allowed to show this as a link so have split it up to show where to look up!

Seriously very interesting
Regards

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2010/august/new-solar-method-080210.html

This seems to be a technique for getting solar thermal and solar PV out of the same panels (sort of like getting the latent heat of steam out of the gas flue vapour with a condensing boiler). Potentially it would make sense on the roof of a hospital, but I cannot see it being an economic breakthrough for a domestic installation in my life time (I'm a pensioner ).

"THE IDIOT'S GUIDE TO PV TECHNOLOGIES"?

There is a "gold rush" on at the moment. The industry must be full of redundant HIP salesmen who have done a 24 hour conversion course, all working as salesmen for the boss who is an electrician who has done a week's course to become MCS approved..

The only area where I feel technically under qualified to evaluate rival quotations, is the technology/options for choice of inverters and PV cells and their financial trade-off's.

"We offer the XYZ inverter as used on the International Space Station and our panels are made [assembled & badge engineered] by ABC [from the basic cells made, with all the others in a production line in Goneshoping - a town of 15 million somewhere in China]. These panels feature Autoclene (TM) and GlitterCrystal (TM) - the unique triple ply ultra efficient mono crystalline technology".

Before we get involved in talking with the "b u ll s h i t baffles b r a i n s" brigade, can anyone point us at unbiased information about the technologies, build quality and survival prospects of the various manufacturers in this "gold rush" industry?

We don't want to be lumbered with Betamax not VHS, when spares/repairs are needed in 15 years time.

Jon_Tiffany

albyota wrote: »

serious or what?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/eu-gives-power-stations-until-2020-to-meet-emissions-rules-2021093.html

and this

Nuclear power stations:

• Dungeness B Power Station 1080MW (predicted closure 2018)
• Hartlepool Power Station 1210MW (predicted closure 2014)
• Heysham Power Station Stage 1 1200MW (predicted closure 2014)
• Heysham Power Station Stage 2 1200MW (predicted closure 2023)
• Hinkley Point B Power Station 1260MW (predicted closure 2011)
• Oldbury Power Station 470MW (predicted closure 2010)
• Sizewell B Power Station 1190MW (predicted closure 2035)

Coal-fired power stations:

• Cottam Power Station 2008MW, EDF
• Didcot A Power Station 1958MW, RWE, co-fires gas and biofuel (to close by end 2015)
• Drax power station 3870MW, Drax Group, co-fires biofuel
• Eggborough Power Station 1960MW, British Energy
• Ferrybridge Power Station 1995MW, SSE, co-fires biofuel (units 1 and 2 to close by end 2015)
• Fiddlers Ferry Power Station 1961MW, SSE, co-fires biofuel
• Ironbridge Power Station (or Buildwas Power Station) 970MW, E.On (to close by end 2015)
• Kingsnorth power station 1940MW, E.On, co-fires oil (A station to close by end 2015)
• Lynemouth Power Station 420MW, Alcan, co-fires biofuel
• Ratcliffe-on-Soar Power Station 2000MW, E.On
• Rugeley Power Station 1006MW, IP
• Tilbury Power Station 1038MW, RWE, co-fires oil (to close by end 2015)
• West Burton Power Station 1972MW, EDF
• Wilton Power Station 197MW, SembCorp Industries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_England

albyota - thanks for the useful information, I had no idea that so many stations were due to close so soon.