Free solar panel discussion

Mcfi5dhc

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Sorry, but that's not correct.

You can't be 'generating 1.44kwh' - you generate power (kw) and how long you generate depends on the energy (kwh) you produce.

A 2.2kw system will not boil a 2.2kw kettle. The 2.2kw is the capacity - the theoretical maximum in ideal conditions, with sun directly overhead which we never have ion the uk, and even where it is directly overhead, it's only there for a second at midday. A 2.2Kw system in the UK will generate between 0 and probably 1.5kw as an absolute max.

I'm afraid people who have spent 10 grand on a system already have a desire to vastly overstate the output - if it's just a quarter of what they expected then they probably feel a little dumb facing the actual figures.

What this wholke scheme needs is to get the engineerring society to comment on some of the overstated claims from those with a financial interest in getting as many installed as possible. They need to install several systems with additional metering to measure exactly the output in the field, and produce some definitve figures. This was done for home wind turbines, and the findings were that none produced anywhere the claims, most produced almost a net zero, and some used more energy in the electronics that they produced (as many, including myself, knew they would).

Getting these things installed and comitted for 25 years is a bad move imo. In 5 years time, technology will produce commercial cells with twice the output of today's cells. Today's technology will be a burdon on any property where it will have to stay for a further 20 years since the option to install a system with a near decent output won't be available for that property.

I am right

The generation meter on my system flashes every time I have generated 1/1000 of a kwh. Sometimes it flashes every 3 seconds, sometimes every 4, sometimes more.

A 2.2 kwp system in daytime will easily boil a kettle . And an hour later your export meter will show that you made a surplus of about 2.19 units provided you had nothing else on.

When its sunny, I generate 1.44 units (kwh) every hour. Sometimes its 1.3, sometimes 1, but when its blazing outside, or just simply nice, I do get 1.44 units per hour minimum. I regularly get the optimum, not just the nanosecond around midday when the sun is high.

The wattages that the makers supply are the minimum you would acheive in test conditions, not maximums, though it would be rare to get much over the stated wattage.

If you are in the Chester area, you may come and inspect the system, and if you really want to, you may measure the power output. PM me for the details. I'm prepared to back up my figures, can you back up yours?

I have no desire to vastly overstate the output. The money that SSE pays me is my proof.

I also agree that everyone is better off. However, the minute you get an export meter, or a smart meter, in my opinion you will massively lose out. Think about it - your meter no longer goes backwards, so all you can use is in the daytime in summer. All the timers in the world can probably only utilise about £30 or £40 a year of power then.

Spies

He does kind of have a point about the kettle.

Your 1.44kwh system generates 0.024kw a minute, a 2.2kw kettle would use 0.036kw a minute, therefore if boiled, the meter should spin the right way, simply because the system isn't providing enough power and it has to draw the difference from the grid.

Jon_Tiffany

grahamc2003 wrote: »

They need to install several systems with additional metering to measure exactly the output in the field, and produce some definitve figures.

This is already happening for anyone who has solar panels under the FIT scheme - regardless of under the ASG offer of privately.

To claim the FIT you need to have an Ofgem approved generation meter installed. This will measure the real output of the panels. I'm pretty sure that on the other thread a few people have posted with their real world figures.

Braemar

joolsleeds wrote: »

A useful article.

I've had some free panels installed by A Shade Greener (ASG), and have been very impressed by the whole set up.

There are no catches, and since we've had the panels installed about 3 months ago, we've taken 45% of our all the electricity we've used off the roof. Obviously, the days will get shorter and the weather less sunny, but fully expect savings of c.35-40% averaged over the year.

ASG's installation was very good, and the after installation service is great too. They are very choosy in terms of who's roof they will put their panels on - your roof must be facing the right way, be big enough for the panels (I have 18 panels installed) and the right roof pitch, otherwise its a no-go.

No strings, other than you are locked in for 25 years, which is a long time. Though the way power prices are going, I expect that the panels would be attractive to house buyers, rather than a put off.

I remain glad that we had them installed, and that we chose ASG.

Are these available if you have a Gas Combi Boiler?

Someone calling door to door told us you have to have a conventional boiler and tank to take advantage of this scheme.

I had solar panels installed 30years ago on a pevious house but they only heated the water and cost a lot to install but did heat the water all year (14 - 65 degrees). Used Sunuser - but would not use them again as did not find this company helpful long term.

malc_b

I don't know why this is advertised as such a good deal. For starters I remain a bit dubious about the return. If it is anything like figures for turbines they tend to be optimistic (i.e. based on a tiny house on top of cliff, not your average house). I suspect the solar cell output will be similar. Only a ideally angle roof will get the quoted return and then only when the cells are clean and new, not after degrading over years and getting dirty.

But, why is 25k return on 12.5k so good? This is over 25 yrs. Invest 12k at 3% compound and that is 25k at the end. Plus 3% is a low return. This site say over 4% for fixed and that's now with the bank rate at an all time low. 5% would return 40k.

And if you do buy them what about maintenance, deterioration, etc.. Nothing lasts 25yrs without maintenance, cleaning, replacement.

Jon_Tiffany

skelly01 wrote: »

can anyone confirm of any companies offering this in Scotland?

If you are in Scotland you are probably better off with a wind turbine (if you have some land) than solar panels. A company called Solarventus offer free wind turbines. While solar panels will work in Scotland I dont the output will be good enough for a decent return.

Mcfi5dhc

Spies wrote: »

He does kind of have a point about the kettle.

Your 1.44kwh system generates 0.024kw a minute, a 2.2kw kettle would use 0.036kw a minute, therefore if boiled, the meter should spin the right way, simply because the system isn't providing enough power and it has to draw the difference from the grid.

You're right, and in my house, yes, my spinning meter (now swapped for an export meter) would go in the normal direction.

However, he/she was comparing a 2.2kw kettle with a 2.2. kwp system, which would cope fine. The meter would stop and would neither go forwards or backwards.

Until you have a solar PV system though, its a bit strange how they act. If you were looking at it spinning backwards, and flick the kettle on, there is a delay and on mine the spinner would stop for a few seconds, then go forward. I don't know what my kettle rating is though, probably at least 2kw

My main point though is that there are people jumping on here who clearly do not have a scooby what is going on, and the danger is people might actually believe them.

A 2.2kwp system, or higher, is a massive system, and as such it can quite easily cope with most things in your home, though clearly not all at the same time.

Just to state by the way, I have no financial stake in any solar company, I work in the building industry (and not in an environmentally green area either!)

I can't disagree with all of this though (edited my my personal view):

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Getting these things installed and comitted for 25 years is a bad move imo. [STRIKE]In 5 years time, technology will produce commercial cells with twice the output of today's cells[/STRIKE]. Today's technology will be a burdon on any property where it will have to stay for a further 20 years [STRIKE]since the option to install a system with a near decent output won't be available for that property[/STRIKE]if they have a smart meter and hardly get any benefit.

Jon_Tiffany

malc_b wrote: »

I don't know why this is advertised as such a good deal. For starters I remain a bit dubious about the return. If it is anything like figures for turbines they tend to be optimistic (i.e. based on a tiny house on top of cliff, not your average house). I suspect the solar cell output will be similar. Only a ideally angle roof will get the quoted return and then only when the cells are clean and new, not after degrading over years and getting dirty.

But, why is 25k return on 12.5k so good? This is over 25 yrs. Invest 12k at 3% compound and that is 25k at the end. Plus 3% is a low return. This site say over 4% for fixed and that's now with the bank rate at an all time low. 5% would return 40k.

And if you do buy them what about maintenance, deterioration, etc.. Nothing lasts 25yrs without maintenance, cleaning, replacement.

If you are taking up the free offer from ASG then none of the above is a concern - you cant loose out if it hasnt cost you anything.

I agree that the returns need to be put into prespective of the time scale - £25k sounds great, but if you have to wait 25 years for it....

jamesperrett

My 88 year old father has just had a system installed - presumably to take advantage of these new tariffs although I didn't really talk economics with him when I saw it a couple of weeks ago.

I get the impression that he would rather have had a system that allowed him to be completely self sufficient with electricity. Neither he (nor I as an electronic engineer for that matter) can understand why the solar panels couldn't be used to recharge a stack of batteries instead of feeding the power back to the grid. He can remember the days when they used to have a whole row of accumulators on the farm to power things and he seemed to be expecting something similar with the solar cells.

On a practical note, the inverter is noisy - it hums in a similar way to an electicity sub-station so it is a good job that it is tucked away in an outside utility room.

Solar cells have been improving in efficiency for the last 40 years but this greater interest in them will only help to push prices down. I suspect that prices will probably halve in the next few years as the feed in tariffs reduce.

James.

skelly01

I am in Central Scotland Jon so cant really see it being much diffetrent from the North West or east of england. Thanks for thei nfo on turbines I will look into it.