House prices just keep on rising

noyk

dougk wrote:

No unlike many UK born, many migrant workers don't expect things to be given to them on a plate and they work hard to get what they want..............not spend it all down the pub or on holidays, the latest gadgets and flash cars!

I actually addressed the question to SammyD, it doesn't matter though i feel like discussing!

Thats just fine, every society has it's problems, we have freeloaders and so do the polish, auzzie's etc in their own countries. I don't know if your from the uk, but we live in a society where aspiration to some of the luxuries you mentioned is ingrained from childhood and really there's nothing wrong with that.

To be honest in my experience the question people thinking things should be handed to them on a plate is generally constrained to the under 21s motivated by their combined youthful arrogance and ignorance, which unfortunately we seem to have imported from the US.

RHemmings

dougk wrote:

No unlike many UK born, many migrant workers don't expect things to be given to them on a plate and they work hard to get what they want..............not spend it all down the pub or on holidays, the latest gadgets and flash cars!

Did you know that many migrant workers, not all, are working on or near minimum wage? If these workers decide that what they want is a reasonable home in this country for them and their family, how will they afford it?

Do you think that the median family can afford to buy the median house if they just stop spending so much down the pub or on holidays, gadgets etc? If you think that, then I'd say that you're way, way, out of touch.

Jay1b

BobProperty wrote:

What immigration? I see no evidence of it round here and I fail to see how a net inflow of 100,000 - 200,000 people will have such a massive effect on a housing market that current houses 60m people.

Erm... 300,000 from Poland alone minimum, figures speculated to be as high as 600,000 (which i think is OTT). 100000-200000 from outside the UK (legal or otherwise). 100000ish leaving the UK... I think your maths is wrong.

Incidentally i'm part Polish with a Polish surname, so this isnt a anti-Polish immigration rant.

But even still, say the number is only 200,000. Thats still a minimum of 50,000 houses a year every year. Thats assuming that if they have 4 of them per house. Realistically this will probably be 2 as most come over for work and dont have families yet, so 100,000 houses a year. Which is a very large town that would need building every single year. Although i actually belief the number is probably nearer 400,000 net immigration - which would be 150000 to 200000. Its not the only reason but its a partial one.

maryjane01

I think eastern european migrants will be buying. About 18 months ago when I was looking for shared accomodation in London, I looked at a 4 bedroom ex coucil maissonette, that a Polish couple had bought. They worked in restaurants, they shared 1 room and had 3 lodgers who I am sure are paying a fair chunk of their mortgage. I don't think somebody English would like to share their first home with 3 lodgers, but after 5 years this couple will be doing very nicely for themselves for the sacraficies they have made. Migrants like this will just buy in cities where there is work though.

mystic_trev

Jay1b wrote:

But even still, say the number is only 200,000. Thats still a minimum of 50,000 houses a year every year.

So they're all staying and none will be going home?

RHemmings

maryjane01 wrote:

I think eastern european migrants will be buying. About 18 months ago when I was looking for shared accomodation in London, I looked at a 4 bedroom ex coucil maissonette, that a Polish couple had bought. They worked in restaurants, they shared 1 room and had 3 lodgers who I am sure are paying a fair chunk of their mortgage. I don't think somebody English would like to share their first home with 3 lodgers, but after 5 years this couple will be doing very nicely for themselves for the sacraficies they have made. Migrants like this will just buy in cities where there is work though.

What percentage of eastern european migrants have any chance of buying here? One anecdote ignores my point that most of these migrants are working for very low wages. People on low wages in the UK cannot afford to buy at current prices.

Hereward

RHemmings wrote:

What percentage of eastern european migrants have any chance of buying here? One anecdote ignores my point that most of these migrants are working for very low wages. People on low wages in the UK cannot afford to buy at current prices.

I feel that you have ignored my previous post. Having low wages does not preclude you from buying a house; it will depend on all of the circumstances of the individual/family. I could quite easily find "affordable" homes near to where I live as the area is considered to be economically deprived (it is a very rural area), but these properties may not be suitable if the buyer cannot move their job to the same area.

RHemmings

Hereward wrote:

I feel that you have ignored my previous post. Having low wages does not preclude you from buying a house; it will depend on all of the circumstances of the individual/family. I could quite easily find "affordable" homes near to where I live as the area is considered to be economically deprived (it is a very rural area), but these properties may not be suitable if the buyer cannot move their job to the same area.

I haven't ignored your answer, but said that this is a single example which does not generalise to the majority. My original statement was about the majority, not a claim that no eastern migrants could afford houses. I work with colleagues from eastern europe who are on higher salaries and have positions of more responsibility than me. And I'm not priced out. But this is not typical of the oft-quoted hundreds of thousands of recent migrants.

For someone on a low salary to be able to buy a house in the way you suggest, first they have to live in a area where house prices are cheap. But the majority of eastern european migrants have gone to places where there is work. Not surprisingly. Secondly unless they have considerable savings already, then they have to get the bank to loan them sufficient monies to be able to afford the house. This is difficult on a low regular salary. Is it not more difficult for someone doing on-demand work such as building work or working in agriculture? Thirdly, they have to keep up with the mortgage payments. Having lodgers will help with this, particularly if they squeeze themselves into an extra room. But if the majority of eastern immigrants tried to buy houses in this way, where would the lodgers come from? And if there's competition for lodgers driving prices down or making it hard to find lodgers then these people will start losing their houses because they can't make the payments.

Then what happens if they have children? Is it a good idea to squeeze children into a small number of rooms or for them to share with their parents with a number of lodgers in the house?

I would say that your example shows that it is possible for some people to buy houses on a low wage, though I'd want to know more about how much the property cost and where the finance came from. But this cannot then be generalised to say that all people on low wages should therefore be able to afford property. And it was the majority that I was talking about.

maryjane01

I am not sure if you are implying I am the person that ignored your anecdote. I wasn't, I was telling you a story of what I saw with my own eyes. This couple worked in restaurants and they were very savvy. You can earn A LOT from tips if you work in the right places in London, and I think they had a few of their own enterprises going on on the side as well. I think there is more of an ethic of working long hours and then putting the money away.

Eastern European tradesman that work for themselves plastering, plumbing etc. may undercut UK born trades men, but they can afford to because their living expenses are lower, they will live 10 to a house and share a bedroom and work a lot of overtime. Then with that money they don't go and buy new cars, ipods, and expensive clothes, they save it to put into property.

I am an Australian, and when I first arrived in London I lived in an ex council flat, that a Polish couple were subletting the rooms in. They lived in one room and six other rooms were being rented out. There were 10 of us in total in this flat, 6 rooms were being used as bedrooms, and there was no living room. Eastern European migrants may earn less, butI think they make it stretch a lot further and are prepared to live in more compromised positions to save. Also, there are a lot of Europeans in London with excellent English in very well paid jobs.

2 years on I am still living in London and I am buying a house with my partner. We complete tomorrow (fingers crossed). Nobody is going to hand anybody a property on a plate (It won't fit!). One of the problems these days is people are not prepared to make sacrificies for long term goals.

RHemmings

maryjane01 wrote:

I am not sure if you are implying I am the person that ignored your anecdote. I wasn't, I was telling you a story of what I saw with my own eyes. This couple worked in restaurants and they were very savvy. You can earn A LOT from tips if you work in the right places in London, and I think they had a few of their own enterprises going on on the side as well. I think there is more of an ethic of working long hours and then putting the money away.

Eastern European tradesman that work for themselves plastering, plumbing etc. may undercut UK born trades men, but they can afford to because their living expenses are lower, they will live 10 to a house and share a bedroom and work a lot of overtime. Then with that money they don't go and buy new cars, ipods, and expensive clothes, they save it to put into property.

I am an Australian, and when I first arrived in London I lived in an ex council flat, that a Polish couple were subletting the rooms in. They lived in one room and six other rooms were being rented out. There were 10 of us in total in this flat, 6 rooms were being used as bedrooms, and there was no living room. Eastern European migrants may earn less, butI think they make it stretch a lot further and are prepared to live in more compromised positions to save. Also, there are a lot of Europeans in London with excellent English in very well paid jobs.

2 years on I am still living in London and I am buying a house with my partner. We complete tomorrow (fingers crossed). Nobody is going to hand anybody a property on a plate (It won't fit!). One of the problems these days is people are not prepared to make sacrificies for long term goals.

Nobody ever handed anybody a property on a plate. But prices have risen so much that it's not just a matter of making sacrifices for long term goals anymore. It's not possible for a singleton on £14,000 or so a year, or a couple with a combined salary of £20,000 or so to boost their purchase ability to the same as a couple with a combined salary of £50,000 by making "a few sacrifices".

If you have just bought a house, could you please tell me what your combined salary is, how much deposit you have, and what the type and price of property you are buying is. This is personal information, so I wouldn't accuse you of avoiding the argument if you didn't post it. But I'm certainly expecting that you have a combined salary and deposit far higher than the majority of eastern european migrants would be getting, or be likely to get in the next few years.

As you say, they can undercut UK tradespeople by having lower living expenses. But part of these lower living expenses are not just in the here and now, but in the future. If they plan to return to eastern europe to live, then their future living expenses are lower than someone born and with family ties in the UK. Anyone saving for a deposit for a property is effectively paying for their future accomodation in the here and now, and clearly someone saving a deposit for a house in Poland will not need to save as much as someone saving for a house in the UK.