Limescale prevention for whole house...

Skiduck

The companies know definately that an electromagnetic field changes the molecular structure of scale sufficiently to stop a build up - basically preventing molecules "sticking" to each other. They do not stop scale from forming, they just stop scale from building up.

djohn2002uk

Skiduck wrote:

The companies know definately that an electromagnetic field changes the molecular structure of scale sufficiently to stop a build up - basically preventing molecules "sticking" to each other. They do not stop scale from forming, they just stop scale from building up.

But isn't that precisely what we want? No buildup of scale.

Volcano

The companies know definately that an electromagnetic field changes the molecular structure of scale sufficiently to stop a build up - basically preventing molecules "sticking" to each other.

No. They are trying to draw a parallel between industrial electromagnetic treatment of constantly circulating heated water (where the water is subjected to a constant, powerful magnetic field) and their own, very weak devices that have no affect on mains water passing by them rapidly. They are inferring a change from calcite (the predominant structure) to aragonite (a less stable structure of carbonate) which simply does not happen in your pipes at home.

Skiduck

djohn2002uk wrote:

But isn't that precisely what we want? No buildup of scale.

yep, you won't stop scale unless you have a softener. The electrolytic ones are the next best thing, but are in no way a replacement for a £400 softener.
As I said before, the feedback as a merchant and as an installation manager from my customers about the Hydroflo HS38 has been excellent, the magnetic ones, not so good. Also, for older people and young children, who "need" hard water, there is no danger in the deprevation of hard water.

Skiduck

Volcano wrote:

No. They are trying to draw a parallel between industrial electromagnetic treatment of constantly circulating heated water (where the water is subjected to a constant, powerful magnetic field) and their own, very weak devices that have no affect on mains water passing by them rapidly. They are inferring a change from calcite (the predominant structure) to aragonite (a less stable structure of carbonate) which simply does not happen in your pipes at home.

where are they drawing this parallel? I haven't seen nor heard any statements about the parallel between constant hot water circulation and domestic systems. The industrial hydroflow units are exactly the same as the domestic ones, albeit on a larger scale.
http://www.hydroflow.force9.co.uk/index.htm

they are obviously confident in their product:

"There is a three-year no quibble, money back guarantee, so you can install HydroFLOW with the utmost confidence."

Mr_Meanie

Volcano wrote:

No. I don't believe it as scientists (at the moment) can prove that it doesn't work.

Could we say that the results of tests have been inconclusive rather than proven not to work?

v0n

djohn2002uk wrote:

Just maybe you two don't know everything even though you spout so much physics to try giving the impression that you do.

That's nice and classy.
As I said - I have no axle to grind, and most certainly I'm not going to retaliate your personal attacks. Of course you have every right to believe I know nothing, and of course I am not going to object in the slightest if you want to believe in the QVC derrived blurb with catchy one liners like "Dynamic Distortion of Molecular Forces techniques" that "force the dissolved minerals such as Calcium and Magnesium to crystallize in the water before the ions settle" or "Molecular Surface Energy Realignments (TM) to neutralize the dissolved calcium carbonates that cause hardness". Or whatever else is written in product pamflet nowadays. I mean - who wouldn't, right? You can almost imagine such line delivered by Dan Ackroyd or David Duchovny and the room immediately gets chilly.

I'd better add for v0n, that the lead in the Salamander comes out of the unit, wraps around the pipe and returns to the unit. No dangling wires and it is a coil.

Have no doubts it does - these devices come in all shapes and sizes:
Single full wrapparoundie with return loop:

Double wrapparoundie with return loop:

Double wrapparoundie without return of any kind:

Any shape and form. Really. And each one of them has at least A4 page of blurb.
The problem is no amount of EM interference or signals of any kind, should they be generated at all by such devices can possibly penetrate to the inside of copper pipe. It's been a while since I last visited high school phisics class but if I recall correctly using copper as shielding is very simple in principle - wrap any of these magical descaling devices around your coax tv cable and see the levels of penetration on ultra thin copper foil shielding. Now imagine what kind of effect could such signal have on copper pipe - which is roughly hundred times thicker?

Mr_Meanie wrote:

So in a nutshell, if you don’t believe in it and scientists (at the moment), can’t prove that it works, it doesn’t work.

Well, that's how it usally works - if there is no real science behind it and its sales pitch relies on anecdotal evidence then it usually is exactly that - device based on no real world principles with no science behind it and with anecdotal evidence.

Can magnetic fields not penetrate copper then?

They can, and in principle magnetic fields might indeed have some effect on formation of lime scale, but as far as I understand the only successful tests were done with use of nuclear magnetic resonance spectrometer - that's the kind of force that's required for magnetic field to have any kind of lasting effect on chemicals in moving water. There were tons of tests done with commercialy available "descaling" magnetic devices done by labs, tv programs and magazines and practically all of them were unsuccessful. Google is your friend.

Mr_Meanie

I came across this article from The School of Water Sciences, Cranfield University some time ago whilst 'researching' this subject, in practically every paragraph they seem to come up with the same answers, a reason why the process can't work but then again it seems to or could do.
I would consider this to be an inconclusive report by people with much more knowledge about the subject than myself, which is why I still keep an open mind on the subject.

http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/sas/water/magnets/

kevinyork

Weymouth_Man wrote:

Have a look at this link, Hope it helps ?
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=13487&ts=76670
Softeners are perhaps better, but cost £400 or more.:grouphug:

Bought this, tried it for 2 months, sent it back. Didnt work for me.

Seems some types work for some, not others. Would recommend ensuring the type you buy has a money back guarentee.

v0n

Mr_Meanie wrote:

I came across this article from The School of Water Sciences, Cranfield University some time ago whilst 'researching' this subject, in practically every paragraph they seem to come up with the same answers, a reason why the process can't work but then again it seems to or could do.
I would consider this to be an inconclusive report by people with much more knowledge about the subject than myself, which is why I still keep an open mind on the subject.

But once again they are talking about very strong magnets - 5000-8000 gauss, and even then - they conclude - the effect is temporary. It's been done before, many times - http://www.csicop.org/si/9801/powell.html