Paypal seller protection?

MK_Chris

OK, time for my first request of advice, I'm afraid it's a long story...!

We had a large 42" TV and, with a baby on the way, we needed some cash to pay for some of the things, so I put it on Ebay. Someone clicked to 'Buy it now' for £300 on Sunday, which I was extremely happy about. I had said on the listing that cash on collection is preferred, but the buyer stated he would be paying by Paypal, to which I responded that this was fine as long as the funds were in before he took the TV away. He said this was fine. I then liaised with him about collection and eventually he sent a white van to pick the item up; it arrived at about 9.45-10.00pm. Since the funds had appeared in my Paypal account, albeit with a status of held, but we clicked that status and it was linked to a page that states:

We’ll set aside payments to sellers whose customers have filed a dispute or chargeback. There are a number of other reasons why we may put your payments into a pending balance. Here are some examples:

• You have been selling on eBay for less than 90 days
  
• You have an eBay feedback score fewer than 100 and have not yet established a record of good performance
  
• You have received fewer than 20 Detatiled Seller Ratings on eBay in the last 12 months or your eBay seller performance is below standard
• You have a high rate of customer disputes or a low eBay feedback percentage
• You have been a PayPal member for less than 6 months and have limited selling activity
• You have a sudden change in selling activities (e.g. suddenly selling expensive items, selling large numbers of items, etc.)
  
• You happen to be selling in a high risk category such as tickets, travel, gift vouchers, computers, electronics, mobile phones, etc.

Now in this case, the items highlighted in red are true; I have only ever sold one other thing on Ebay. At this point there were no disputes showing in Paypal, so we let the driver take the TV. Paypal also shows in the details about the transaction that the payment was held, then released and then held again (probably when they raised the dispute).

Soon after he left, a dispute showed up, raised by Paypal. I called the buyer and informed him of this, he said he would go on and sort it out. I went to bed, trying to convince myself that it would all be OK.

Alas in the morning, I had two messages from Ebay, one telling me that the listing had been removed so that I do not get any fees for the listing because "it has come to our attention that the items were bought without the account owner's authorisation"; the other message was stating that I have recently had contact with said account and that it was used without the owner's authorisation and urging me, if I have already despatched the item, to contact the police and get a crime number.

I rang Paypal, who put me through to the fraud department and told me that the transaction was being investigated and this could take up to 10 days. They are waiting for the buyer's response, but I think the belief is that the Paypal account was also used without the owner's permission.

I had also had one other message from an Ebay user that I have subsequently kept in constant contact with yesterday, who had been victim to the same Ebay user account (he was also selling a TV). He reported his incident to his local police and obtained a crime number; he is slightly luckier in that the 'buyer' sent a local taxi company to pick his item up, so I believe the police were able to question the driver about where he dropped the item up; I also reported the crime with Thames Valley Police and told them this information and gave them the crime number of the other person.

Anyway - from what Paypal's help section is saying, I think they'll be very unlikely to refund my money. It seems there is a lot of protection for the buyer, but very little for the seller; the help pages state of seller protection:

• Retain proof of delivery that can be tracked online, such as Royal Mail’s Recorded Delivery. If your buyer picks the item up in person or you cannot provide proof of delivery that can be tracked online, your transaction will not qualify. This includes items posted with first class postage
• For items with a value of £150 or more, you need to provide proof of signature from the recipient

I don't know, maybe I was a little naive - I was under the impression that once the money appeared in Paypal, it was safe to let the item go. Interestingly, the person who logged my crime informed me that there have been a spate of similar incidents going on. Clearly the person who owns the Paypal account will get their money back - of course that is the right thing to do - but does anyone know if I am right that I am not entitled to my money back? Surely if Paypal say the money is there, they can't then take it back? I am absolutely determined to fight for this, it has incensed me!

Thanks for any information you may be able to provide (and apologies for the long post!)

motorguy

Unfortunately you've found out that paypal look after

• themselves
• the buyer
• the seller

in that order.

They talk about 'risk free' exchanges, but thats just not how it is.

I think your only hope is with the police. No way will paypal cover this.

Depress yourself further by going to https://www.paypalsucks.com

cyberbob

pgilc1 wrote: »

Unfortunately you've found out that paypal look after

• themselves
• the buyer
• the seller

in that order.

They talk about 'risk free' exchanges, but thats just not how it is.

I think your only hope is with the police. No way will paypal cover this.

Depress yourself further by going to https://www.paypalsucks.com

Don;t be so silly. Paypal have terms and conditions and unfortunatley the OP didnt check them before the sale, I'm sorry to say Paypal ient really designed for collection items as you are unable to prove delivery you have lost your money your only option is to look at the small claims court

As for Paypal sucks its full of sad individuals who blame everyone else ut themselves for their inability to understand how paypal works. Its not a good source on how to use paypal

MK_Chris

cyberbob wrote: »

I'm sorry to say Paypal ient really designed for collection items as you are unable to prove delivery

The problem I have with this is it seems to be mandatory to offer Paypal as a payment option on Ebay, yet people are offered the option on Ebay of specifying 'collection only'. So that is a horrible inconsistency, especially given that Ebay own Paypal.

patman99

Seller protection on Paypal?, you're having a laugh aren't you?.
Only Google checkout offers that.

If you have the bidders email address, then I would contact him and tell him that you took the details and reg. no. of the collection vehicle and unless he pays-up pronto you will pass these on to the Police.

He will have no idea that you are bluffing.

soolin

Biggest scam going and there is unlikely to be anything the oP can do about it. Paypal on colelciton is a major issue, I am always banging on about it and people still do it even though they terms on paypal are very clear, to stop a chargeback you must be able ot prove delivery to the address given in paypal 'using online tracking' no exceptions.

I do have a problem with ebay forcing paypal on us for collection items, but it doesn't matter how much we think it is wrong they still insist on it and while they do that I would never ever consider selling a high end item unless it oculd be posted.

OP I don't suppose you have anything at all on the scum bag that collected the TV do you, a registration number of the van or anything?

This cam can only work whilst people use ebay and paypal without understanding it, and the only way to put these thieves (as that is what they are) out of business is to understand things before we use them.

soolin

pgilc1 wrote: »

Unfortunately you've found out that paypal look after

• themselves
• the buyer
• the seller

in that order.

They talk about 'risk free' exchanges, but thats just not how it is.

I think your only hope is with the police. No way will paypal cover this.

Depress yourself further by going to www.paypalsucks.com

Yes it does make dismal reading all those 'I gave £500 laptop to a complete stranger and never read anything at all about keeping myself safe with paypal and ignored the warning on the payment received page'stories. Also the 'I sent a £300 item without any insurance or tracking and buyer says it hasn't arrived so paypal have refunded them' just makes me fear for the basic common sense of people.

patman99 wrote: »

Seller protection on Paypal?, you're having a laugh aren't you?.
Only Google checkout offers that.

.

But as they have no buyer protection no one uses them. I found that out to my cost and closed my account once i realised an online shop could basically say 'tough' when my order failed to arrive.

Astec

MK_Chris wrote: »

The problem I have with this is it seems to be mandatory to offer Paypal as a payment option on Ebay, yet people are offered the option on Ebay of specifying 'collection only'. So that is a horrible inconsistency, especially given that Ebay own Paypal.

Agree 100%. Ebay/Paypal can sort this out very easily, but they'll lose their 3% Paypal fees. I lost a poxy £3 on an item that was collected and the buyer claimed 'non receipt'. Paypal don't care if I lose £3 or the OP loses £300, they want their cut because for them fraud pays.

Call me naieve, but I wouldn't expect to be scammed over anything so futile, wasn't fussed about the money as everything else went as freebies on gumtree, it's just that I feel paypal encourage it to get their cut of something we don't need.

Truth is, if it wasn't for the stupid mandatory paypal rule, I'd personally list a lot more on ebay rather than bin/charity shop/gumtree freebies as it does have a wider market.

forgotmyname

You should have rejected the payment and said you have not received it.

Must be a paypal error. They would have probably told you they no longer want it
knowing they will have to pay for it.

soolin

forgotmyname wrote: »

You should have rejected the payment and said you have not received it.

Must be a paypal error. They would have probably told you they no longer want it
knowing they will have to pay for it.

You can't reject a payment though can you, all OP could have done was refund it which shows it was received.

MK_Chris

Thanks to all for the replies - to me, it's just as unfair as the bank charges thing, even if it is detailed in the terms and conditions, so I will be fighting it, regardless of who writes my chances off.

I'll go to the various consumer organisations that are set up, the ombudsman, the FSA... and if all else fails, small claims or Watchdog, I don't care. I won't just sit back and let £300 go down the swanny.