savings whilst claiming

chel1234_2

my daughter has had her income support stopped due to a friend saving to purchase her house for her. My daughter has mental health problems and is on incapacity and dla. She was interviewed under caution some months ago when the friend told them that it was his money,he made a statement to this effect, also a letter was shown that my daughters house was to be valued. They have now decided that my daughter is not entitled to income support as the capital is over 16.000. I have looked at the total of the savings that he has been saving and it nowhere totals this ammount.They never disclosed the total amount that they were investigating.
All information that they requested from the bank was sent to them and no response to this was given. Statements were not asked for, they knew of accounts that her friend had used to save.
I think that i am right to apeal but now the problem comes into play of housing benefit and council tax.
The friend is now taking out the money saved which infact means that she has no savings in her name as the money wasnt hers to start with.
Has anyone any idea of how long this process will take.
Some years ago my daughter had some back pay from the dhss and it was the commisoner who asked the secretary of state whether in fact the money should be put into a third partys hands due to my daughters mental health condition, i have these documents and wonder whether this would help her case.
This is a worry to all her family and i cannot see at the moment what i can do to help.
I would apriciate any further information that people on the site can help with

jooles5a

Hi

I'm sorry about this but I'm a little confused:
- Whose money is it?
- Where was it being kept?
- Where is it now?
- Where does the friend live?
- Is the friend your daughter's appointee/power of attorney/receiver?
- Are the DWP classing your daughter and her friend as a couple?
- Are they a couple?
- Is the friend receiving any income based benefits?

The only advice I can give without these answers is that DWP fraud have the means and the right to obtain information directly from banks etc when a claimant is under investigation. Also, their investigation file is exempt under the data protection act i.e. if your daughter or her representative asks to see all information held relating to her, they will supply everything else but have the right to withhold this file.

Sorry for being unable to offer more advice but if you can let me know more, I should be able to shed a bit more light.

Bossyboots

One thing to check is whether money was transferred from one account to another and therefore counted twice. This is what happened to my mum and she was assessed as having £6000 more in savings than she really did have because of it.

Other than that, if the money is in your daughter's name then it will be classed as her money. I wonder whether the fact that it has now been removed will leave her open to an accusation of deprivation of capital and cause her to fail in a claim for benefits anyway.

chel1234_2

thanks for the reply.
The money is still in my daughters name.Her friend used the acount because it was an open accouns some years ago and decided to save in this account separate from his own accounts. He has done a lot of work in her home to help her for the future. They are not a couple and never have lived together, but he has been in her life for over 11 years.
Last year she was investigated as they had had a letter to sugest that she was living with a partner, this wasnt the case and no more was heard about this. I am thinking they are hell belt on investigating my daughter for anything they can get on her.
He is very upset that this problem has occured as he had no idea that there would be a problem as he is a working man and didnt know the rules etc for saving if on benefit. He wants to withdraw the money and maybe help with the money she has now lost.
My daughter has a child so the money that she has lost will be felt greatly. Do you know the situation with housing benefit and council tax. I dont know whether a solicitor will take this case and whether the cost will be a lot of money. Your help is apriciated

chel1234_2

how can they say she has deprived herself of capital if it isnt her money. They did think that there was lots of accounts because as the account matured it closed and reopened as it had matured. This situation and evidence was supplied to them

Sarahsaver

If the money is in her name then legally its hers. If you have savuings of that level you don't get means tested benefits. DLA and INCAP are not means tested.

jooles5a

Actually that's not strictly true - the bit about if it's in her name it's classed as hers. The DWP have rules about legal ownership and beneficial ownership of capital. If you can prove that the money isn't hers, they shouldn't count it as being hers. Let's say the friend has withdrawal receipts from his bank a/c for amounts identical to deposits made to your daughters a/c on the same days he made his withdrawals - it could be said that the money was his despite it being in your daughters a/c. They'd want to know why he chose to keep it there instead of in an a/c in his name and he'd have to have a good reason and some sort of evidence to back it up but, providing they are satisfied with his answers, they will change their decision about who owns the money. This is why I asked where he lives and if they are a couple - if, in the eyes of DWP, they are a living together, it's irrelevant as to whether the money is his or your daughter's. You say an investigation into this has already taken place but nothing has been heard - I would chase this up as a decision should have been made and notified. If it turns out that DWP are deeming them to be a couple, your 'fight' will be that as well as the savings. I know the letter said 'because her savings exceed £16000' but they only input a code when closing down a claim and a mistake could've been made.

You say the figure was nowhere near £16000 - is there a chance they've included the friend's total capital in other a/cs? Does your daughter have any other monies/investments?

The other thing to consider is whether or not, given what you've said about your daughter having problems, your daughter had any idea of a) what her friend was doing with her bank accounts or b) the implications. If not, the commissioners letter expressing his concerns could prove very helpful if her condition hasn't improved.

You could be right about counting the money twice - if the dates overlap or the bank info wasn't very clear it could be a real possibility. It would be worth contacting the investigating officer to clarify - if your daughter deals with her own affairs with DWP, she'll have to be with you when you ring. Just for the sake of ease, it may be worth your daughter writing a letter which authorises them to communicate with you whilst the matter is dealt with.

Re. the friend helping out - I can't help thinking this would be a bad idea. His intentions are very honorable but, in the eyes of DWP, would it not just be proving them right? It's a tricky one and, sadly, your daughter and her child are the only ones likely to suffer, plus you with the worry.

Sorry, I can't think and type quick enough to keep up with you.

SMC_2

You daughters situation is obvisouly quite complicated. Speak to your local CAB or Welfare Rights, they can give you advice, can even represent your daughter if it goes to appeal.

chel1234_2

thanks. It was already pointed out by the friend that my daughter didnt know about the savings. He provided evidence of where the money came from, from past employers that he had worked for. He also provided them with his name and address and that he paid his mortage and council tax at his property. They did question a bank account with no money in, they wanted to know who the other person was on the account, it was my daughters husband which they were informed of about the marriage back in 2000. My daughters x husband is not in the country and left 3 years ago. They stated that there was over 10.000 in accounts but didnt give an end figure. If they suspect my daughter of fraud surely they must of been aware that she did get married and the name of her husband whom she had a joint account with.
Although all possible information was provided by her friend and the banks they will not say where they have come to this decision of over 16.000
I have been told that because she has been interviewed under caution that she cannot be procecuted but i am unsure whether this is true. They also dont take into account my daughters mental health problems.

jooles5a

I don't wish to alarm you but whoever has said that because she was IUC'd, she can't be prosecuted is wrong. IUC's carry the same weight as if the Police are doing it - they have to follow PACE procedures in England and Wales (Police and Criminal Evidence act) which are exactly what the Police follow. Now, part of this act states that a person has to be in a position to give a good account of themselves - this is usually more applicable where drink or drugs are affecting the person in interview - but mental and physical health are not excluded. The ability to conduct oneself in interview is supposed to be determined before the interview so they don't waste anyone's time.

I cannot see how they can't produce what evidence they have to show £16000+ - how can your daughter admit or deny the allegation without it? Is this definitely a fraud investigation? Other sections in DWP have responsibility for checking one departments details against another but they don't have IUC powers. Having said this, they would still have to have the evidence of the £16000 to prompt the closure of the claim.

The only other thing I can think of is the date they are considering this information from. The capital rules only changed in April 2006 to £16000. Prior to this it was £8000 so if it was before then and the sum comes to more than that, that will explain how they can disallow IS. The computers are updated to account for the changes but usually no provision is made for the people who fall into the overlap - this will explain why the letter states £16000 if all this is the case.

On the upside, if this is the case, your daughter should be able to re-apply for IS - they will ask about where her 'savings' have gone and for the meantime will take the higher amount into account until it's all sorted out. I am assuming that because they've told you it's higher than £10000, they mean it's lower than £16000.

The fact your ex-SIL has been brought up only convinces me they are using old info provided by the Inland Revenue about how much interest was paid on accounts relating to your daughter - this is usually 2-3 years out of date by the time the DWP get hold of it. They can calculate approx how much the balance must have been at the time to generate that amount of interest but IN EVERY CASE, they must support their findings by way of statements from the bank/building society. The big difference between this type of investigation and one conducted by fraud is that fraud don't need permission of the individual to request information whilst the others do.

Hope this helps a little

chel1234_2

thanks 2 ure reply. My daughter wasnt well before the interview but they again disregarded this The interview was taped, can anyone have a copy of thier tape? Permision wasnt asked for statements from my daughter so i can only now think they are acausing her of fraud. Her friend said that she was shown a benefit claim form from 2000 and asked if that was her signicture, so they must be taking the savings from 2000. They requested information of 5 accounts which was given to them. They also wanted to know why a certain ammount was withdrawn in 2001. I dont know why they wanted this information. If it is requested would they show where they have got this figure of 16.000 from. I am concerned if the money is withdrawn now that they may request money owing to them and then the housing benefit etc will want thier cut. There will be no money and even if there was if all wanted thier money back because she wasnt entitled she would be left with a huge debt. When all the information was supplied they didnt answer i had to phone and was told that the information supplied wasnt enough and that it had gore to a decision maker. The investigating officer told me that it wasnt her decision to make the final decision. I spoke with income support and they informed me that it was the investigating officer that makes the final decision. I have tried to copmplain to the customer service because of this but was just passed around with nobody listerning. im sorry if this is so complicated and i am getting some usefull information from you