Do I have to refund?

toffe

I'm not sure what you are asking here, i.e. are you asking if you are legally oblidged to refund or if amazon will force you to refund regardless of your legal obligations.

As i'm sure you will have gathered from other replies, if the matter goes to an amazon claim Amazon will refund the buyer, they will then come after you for the money.

This contradicts your legal selling status obligations, in the uk private sellers do not have to offer refunds, but you have a private agreement with Amazon to abide by their decisions even if those decisions contradict your legal rights.

PROBLEM: Contractual terms which remove a person's legal rights or protection are prohibited under uk unfair contract legislation. This is why i believe Both Amazon and paypal's user sgreements are not legally binding.

It would also be very difficult for amazon to pursue you through the courts (the only realistic chance they have of enforcing payment) based on a contractual term which removes/ contradicts your legal rights.

So, If you don't care about using Amazon again in the future you could cancel your payment arrangement with them so that they can not debit your bank account and refuse to pay, it's unlikely you'll ever have to pay but you'll probably get debt collection letters and phone calls at some point.

You'll also never be able to use Amazon again.

So it's your decision, what would you rather have, your Amazon account or the money? You can't have both so it's a decision you'll have to make.

If you decide not to refund the buyer will just have to sell the phone on, he may even make a profit on a good day so it's not like he'll be left out of pocket.

4743hudsonj

toffe wrote: »

I'm not sure what you are asking here, i.e. are you asking if you are legally oblidged to refund or if amazon will force you to refund regardless of your legal obligations.

As i'm sure you will have gathered from other replies, if the matter goes to an amazon claim Amazon will refund the buyer, they will then come after you for the money.

This contradicts your legal selling status obligations, in the uk private sellers do not have to offer refunds, but you have a private agreement with Amazon to abide by their decisions even if those decisions contradict your legal rights.

PROBLEM: Contractual terms which remove a person's legal rights or protection are prohibited under uk unfair contract legislation. This is why i believe Both Amazon and paypal's user sgreements are not legally binding.

It would also be very difficult for amazon to pursue you through the courts (the only realistic chance they have of enforcing payment) based on a contractual term which removes/ contradicts your legal rights.

So, If you don't care about using Amazon again in the future you could cancel your payment arrangement with them so that they can not debit your bank account and refuse to pay, it's unlikely you'll ever have to pay but you'll probably get debt collection letters and phone calls at some point.

You'll also never be able to use Amazon again.

So it's your decision, what would you rather have, your Amazon account or the money? You can't have both so it's a decision you'll have to make.

If you decide not to refund the buyer will just have to sell the phone on, he may even make a profit on a good day so it's not like he'll be left out of pocket.

I highly doubt the "contradict" legal rights, its not really a right to not have obligations is it? so agreeing to Amazons terms cannot contradict anything (what is there to contradict!). Saying its illegal is too far and a bit short sighted.

I do however agree that because legally he doesnt have obligations, the worst he will get is not being able to use Amazon.

DVardysShadow

4743hudsonj wrote: »

I highly doubt the "contradict" legal rights, its not really a right to not have obligations is it? so agreeing to Amazons terms cannot contradict anything (what is there to contradict!). Saying its illegal is too far and a bit short sighted.

I do however agree that because legally he doesnt have obligations, the worst he will get is not being able to use Amazon.

Actually, toffe makes a well argued point, which has exposed for me at least, some potential ambiguity in the relationships.

It is plain that there is a contract between seller and amazon and nearly as plain that there is a contract between amazon and buyer. but the extent of the contract between amazon and buyer is less clear and is clouded by the question of whether there is actually a contract between buyer and seller - or whether the sale comes through back to back contracts from seller to amazon and amazon to buyer. Or is the sale a straight contract between buyer and seller with amazon being merely [seller's?] agent?

I suspect that if you put different scenarios to amazon you would get different answers as to what the relationships are. But it is only when you determine what the relationships are that you can actually begin to determine what the responsibilities of the seller are.

soolin

Surely though this is all immaterial. Amazon rules which a seller confirms that they agree to say that a refund should be made.

If a seller agrees to use any site and agrees to abide by the rules of that site then it seems quite clear what their responsibility is.

DVardysShadow

soolin wrote: »

Surely though this is all immaterial. Amazon rules which a seller confirms that they agree to say that a refund should be made.

If a seller agrees to use any site and agrees to abide by the rules of that site then it seems quite clear what their responsibility is.

It only seems quite clear. Actually, it is quite a mess. Possibly Amazon cannot force a refund beyond cancelling the seller's membership. The only certain thing to me is that Amazon could cancel a seller's membership. They could themselves refund the buyer, but whether they could make the seller reimburse them is far less clear.

toffe

4743hudsonj wrote: »

I highly doubt the "contradict" legal rights, its not really a right to not have obligations is it? so agreeing to Amazons terms cannot contradict anything (what is there to contradict!). Saying its illegal is too far and a bit short sighted.

I do however agree that because legally he doesnt have obligations, the worst he will get is not being able to use Amazon.

To be honest i'm not to sure what you mean by "it's not really a right to not have obligations".

If you mean it is not a "right" not to have the obligation to refund then i'd have to argue, yes, that is a private sellers legal right.

A private seller has the right to consider all sales final, this right is often removed under the terms of Amazon and Paypal contracts, therefore private sellers legal rights are being removed.

I belive that this is a contractual prohibition.

Purely from a consumer protection angle i'd therefore have to ask the question, would/should Amazon be able to take any action beyond removing the private sellers right to use their services in terms of forcing the private seller to hand over any money.

I don't think they could if this possible contractual prohibition was argued, i also think it unlikely amazon would go beyond basic debt collection efforts, i.e. letters and phone calls.

soolin

DVardysShadow wrote: »

It only seems quite clear. Actually, it is quite a mess. Possibly Amazon cannot force a refund beyond cancelling the seller's membership. The only certain thing to me is that Amazon could cancel a seller's membership. They could themselves refund the buyer, but whether they could make the seller reimburse them is far less clear.

Amazon will refund the buyer and chase seller for payment, there have been instances of this on the forums there before. That's why Amazon now demand sellers lodge a credit card with them rather than just a debit card as it makes it easier to recover funds (although not of course guaranteed). However not all sellers have yet been asked to register a credit card as the system seems to be rolling over very slowly. However I agree there have been few instances where that 'chasing' has gone beyond some rather nasty letters and a few debt collection threats. I am nto aware that anyone has yet had any form of legal force used against them. Most people chased this way have benen more upset that everyone else connected with them has had their account closed as well, as that can cause some family issues.

On the ebay and others board we often get threads about why some companies make it so difficult for sellers to register to sell, this proves why that is. If sellers believe they can sign up, agree to all the terms and conditions and then run away and hide the moment those conditions are enforced then maybe selling sites should be even stricter with their membership.

Markb06

Why is this not the same as a shop. If i bought something from a shop and changed my mind then the shop does not have to refund me. Its all down to goodwill. Now just because the buyer was to impatient to wait for his product and bought the phone elsewhere thats not my problem.

And why only email me after he had recieved the phone from me. Why not before? He got the phone on Saturday morning but left until late last night to tell me he dont want it.

I am not running away hence why I have came here for advice so get off your high horse and lose the attitude

custardy

Markb06 wrote: »

Why is this not the same as a shop. If i bought something from a shop and changed my mind then the shop does not have to refund me. Its all down to goodwill. Now just because the buyer was to impatient to wait for his product and bought the phone elsewhere thats not my problem.

And why only email me after he had recieved the phone from me. Why not before? He got the phone on Saturday morning but left until late last night to tell me he dont want it.

I am not running away hence why I have came here for advice so get off your high horse and lose the attitude

but if you bought online you could

4743hudsonj

toffe wrote: »

To be honest i'm not to sure what you mean by "it's not really a right to not have obligations".

If you mean it is not a "right" not to have the obligation to refund then i'd have to argue, yes, that is a private sellers legal right.

A private seller has the right to consider all sales final, this right is often removed under the terms of Amazon and Paypal contracts, therefore private sellers legal rights are being removed.

I belive that this is a contractual prohibition.

Purely from a consumer protection angle i'd therefore have to ask the question, would/should Amazon be able to take any action beyond removing the private sellers right to use their services in terms of forcing the private seller to hand over any money.

I don't think they could if this possible contractual prohibition was argued, i also think it unlikely amazon would go beyond basic debt collection efforts, i.e. letters and phone calls.

What exactly is it prohibiting?

There is no rights for private buyers (out of amazon etc) correct?

So therefore, the seller has no obligations to abide by, correct?

Therefore, how can a site prohibit, something that does not exist? I.e the fact that a seller has no legal obligations. Instead, theyre "adding" to them which i dont agree is illegal as there isnt actually and law stating that private sales have no legal obligations?

Im not arguing the fact that its muddled really, im just saying i dont agree their terms break the law, if they do im sure they would have been called up on it by now.

I just think that the circumstances will be like ebay, lets say your item goes for less than you want, now ebay rules state you "have" to sell it (much like from amazon you have to refund), but how can they possibly force you? they dont take you to court do they, they just give you one of those strikes and you get some neg feedback. So i would say, that no matter the rules, if the op doesnt want to refund, they shouldnt. Then they just have to deal with whatever restrictions amazon put on them.