Is Deliberately Starving Millions of the Populace to death A Good Thing

Generali

Masomnia wrote: »

I'm curious Gen, was it studying economics that made you the right-leaning, freemarketeer that you are?

I used to be fairly left leaning, then found this place...

I was sort of generically left leaning until I studied economics and discovered the comsequences of those choices.

Yes, would be the shorter answer to your question.

ninky_2

vivatifosi wrote: »

If I work hard to keep my skills marketable, why shouldn't I be paid more than those who don't?

a lot things of marketable high value don't require hard work - or harder work than other things. does katie price work harder than a cleaner for example?

does someone enjoying rents from private property work harder than a bin man?

i just don't buy the fact that those on high salaries are harder workers than those on low salaries. some might be but many are not. i don't think there is any statistical evidence that 'hard work' correlates to high earning in a capitalist economy. i only have to look around me to see that is not the case.

yes if i work harder / more hours i will probably earn more than if i work less. but i won't necessarily earn more than another person who works less.

what do you mean by 'hard work' anyway? longer hours? more physically demanding? more concentration? fewer rest breaks?

people in sweat shops work pretty damn hard. i don't see them becoming millionaires though.

ninky_2

jonewer wrote: »

You'd have to work harder to make your factory a viable business. Go to the poorhouse else.

or just employ good management to do it for you.

Generali

fc123 wrote: »

I ticked choice 3 on the poll and just looked and no one else did........have I misunderstood the poll?

I don't think so. I find it amazing that so many people managed to pick option 2.

For me it's rather like saying, "Well Hitler wasn't a very nice guy but you can't take the Volkswagen Beetle away from him. Despite his failings, he gave the world a great car".

Mr.Brown_4

Generali wrote: »

I don't think so. I find it amazing that so many people managed to pick option 2.

Ah Mr. G, there you are. I just had a look at the options and they all seemed to be a tad bias. Almost a one party poll if you don't mind me saying. I hope you wont kick me in the gulags for mentioning this.

jonewer

ninky wrote: »

or just employ good management to do it for you.

You seriously think thats all it takes to run a succesful business?

1984ReturnsForReal_2

Have I missed something?

Have Stalin, Mao & Pol Pot suddenly risen from their graves?

vivatifosi

ninky wrote: »

i don't think there is any statistical evidence that 'hard work' correlates to high earning in a capitalist economy. i only have to look around me to see that is not the case..

Agreed. And I find Jordan a vile woman. But if you honestly think that people like me, fc, and anyone else who runs their own business (and in my case work 3 other jobs as well because of the downturn) are willing to earn the same as everyone else when we are the ones taking the risks, putting out butts on the line, keeping our skills out there, you are crazy. If I had to earn the same as everyone else, not be rewarded for going the extra mile, frankly I wouldn't run my own business, couldn't be arsed and would be contented to do the bare minimum.

If you think it works that well in non-capitalist countries take a good look at Cuba, where those that are well trained (such as doctors) earn less than those with access to hard currency through their jobs as cleaners and bar-tenders in Western hotels. It can't all be down to American blockades, workers in the former Soviet Union and Eastern bloc countries also earned less. You can't expect an egalitarian utopia. Human behaviour, under whatever system - capitalism, communism, feudalism, fascism, won't allow it.

carolt

drc wrote: »

The grass is always greener...

In my experience of meeting people who grew up under Communism in East Germany and Poland they hate Communism with a passion and love being "free" whereas those that have grown up with all the freedoms of the West tend to have a romanticised view of Communism. Then again, they haven't had to see the negative aspects of it, only those of evil Capitalism and they don't see the irony of being able to criticise their own governments/leaders/political systems and extolling the virutes of Stalin/Lenin/Mao without fear of being dumped in a gulag or silenced by the Stasi.

Not at all true - I have lots of family in East Germany and as films like Goodbye Lenin! (great film, if anyone hasn't seen it) show, there is great nostalgia for life under communism there among those who experienced it - despite the horrors of the Stasi, food shortages, limited luxuries etc - in fact the communist party continues to do very well there in elections. Whilst the Wall was still there, the grass was definitely viewed as greener on the other side; once it fell, and the true harshness of life under capitalism hit, then the certainties of life under communism appealed.

So in fact somewhat the opposite of what the post above suggests.

Sapphire

drc wrote: »

The grass is always greener...

In my experience of meeting people who grew up under Communism in East Germany and Poland they hate Communism with a passion and love being "free" whereas those that have grown up with all the freedoms of the West tend to have a romanticised view of Communism. Then again, they haven't had to see the negative aspects of it, only those of evil Capitalism and they don't see the irony of being able to criticise their own governments/leaders/political systems and extolling the virutes of Stalin/Lenin/Mao without fear of being dumped in a gulag or silenced by the Stasi.

Very much seconded. I've heard often well-educated English people spout out apologistic nonsense relevant to Russian communism for years, and it never fails to dumfound me that they can come out with such views.

In fact, I sometimes think that so-called British 'intellectuals' who voice any support for such a system are just plain evil, given the evidence of what Russian communism did to so many millions of lives, including the murder of millions and the despoiling of the cultures of ancient nations. I mean, they know about the terrible suffering that their fellow human beings went through, because the evidence is there as plain as day, yet they still manage to act as apologists for the system. (My specific, family knowledge is of Poland, but I'm well aware of what it was like in East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and other countries under Russian oppression.)