Is Deliberately Starving Millions of the Populace to death A Good Thing

Sapphire

Generali wrote: »

I don't think so. I find it amazing that so many people managed to pick option 2.

For me it's rather like saying, "Well Hitler wasn't a very nice guy but you can't take the Volkswagen Beetle away from him. Despite his failings, he gave the world a great car".

Me to. Shows a certain kind of 'British' naivete, in my view, based on lack of knowledge about the subject.

Sapphire

carolt wrote: »

Not at all true - I have lots of family in East Germany and as films like Goodbye Lenin! (great film, if anyone hasn't seen it) show, there is great nostalgia for life under communism there among those who experienced it - despite the horrors of the Stasi, food shortages, limited luxuries etc - in fact the communist party continues to do very well there in elections. Whilst the Wall was still there, the grass was definitely viewed as greener on the other side; once it fell, and the true harshness of life under capitalism hit, then the certainties of life under communism appealed.

So in fact somewhat the opposite of what the post above suggests.

Not so in my experience. If there is nostalgia it probably comes from people who never actually lived under Russian communism, or were part of the apparachik, with their dachas and other privileges. People like some of my relatives, who were intellectuals, had to leave (or escape) their country because they found living under communism so oppressive.

You know, I wish people like you could experience life under the communist system just for a year. You'd soon change your tune. :mad:

carolt

Sapphire wrote: »

Not so in my experience. If there is nostalgia it probably comes from people who never actually lived under Russian communism, or were part of the apparachik, with their dachas and other privileges. People like some of my relatives, who were intellectuals, had to leave (or escape) their country because they found living under communism so oppressive.

You know, I wish people like you could experience life under the communist system just for a year. You'd soon change your tune. :mad:

What is your experience, Sapphire?

I'm talking about the experiences of my family members, and my own personal experience - I have visited East Germany many times and spent a lot of time there. Both before and since Communism.

Go watch the film I named, and see for yourself what I was referring to.

I'm not claiming life under communism was perfect; you'd have to be a fool to do so.

But then nor is life under capitalism perfect either; anyone who claims that all the evils lie within the communist system only are fools too, in my opinion.

ruggedtoast

Masomnia wrote: »

People do often say that Communism's good in theory, so I ask them exactly in what way. 'Umm... well...'

Has any communist government ever been voted in? Genuine question, because I can't think of any. How many of them have free and fair elections in which the population are asked 'do you want a communist system?', it just doesn't happen.

Communism is always forced on people and strips them of their freedom and right to pursue whatever goals they choose.

The Indian state of Kerala is the only place I know of to have voluntarily voted in a communist government. Kerala is incidentally the most well educated Indian province, and the only one I went to that seemed half way sane.

They do have quite a lot of trouble with strikes, and a very bloated local government, even by Indian standards, but otherwise it seemed a lost less ridden with inequality and the other insanities than plague India.

If you look at the political situations Generali gives in his OP, they were all totalitarian regimes preceded by a power vacuum caused by years of war, or enormous political instability.

GDB2222

vivatifosi wrote: »

If you think it works that well in non-capitalist countries take a good look at Cuba, where those that are well trained (such as doctors) earn less than those with access to hard currency through their jobs as cleaners and bar-tenders in Western hotels.

Well, the doctors were born with good brains - and did nothing special to deserve that - then they were trained by the state to do a worthwhile and satisfying job. Of course cleaners need to be paid more as their job isn't as much fun.

StevieJ

Sapphire wrote: »

Not so in my experience. If there is nostalgia it probably comes from people who never actually lived under Russian communism, or were part of the apparachik, with their dachas and other privileges. People like some of my relatives, who were intellectuals, had to leave (or escape) their country because they found living under communism so oppressive.

You know, I wish people like you could experience life under the communist system just for a year. You'd soon change your tune. :mad:

From what I read a lot of the older Russian citizens hanker after the surety of the old system, not surprising really considering how quickly the riches and resources were hoovered up by a small number of people, in the know. Nothing unusual there then :eek:

carolt

Quite - I've worked in Kazakstan, a former part of the USSR, post-Communism, and I can assure you that for ordinary people there, life is unimaginably hard.

The collapse of communism took away all their security; old people who under communism would have been entitled to a decent retirement, were left with nothing - the home they lived in, yes, but no pension or state social security. That's why the streets are spotless; old people get paid pennies to scrub them.

The same applies in Russia, acc to my OH who worked there also.

We may complain about inequalities within our old social democracy; modern raw capitalist societies like Russia have levels of wealth inequality that make our system look positively communist by comparison. Billionaires buy up prime London property and British football clubs; ordinary people have very, very little.

They have to resort to coming to the UK and sleeping with very, very elderly members of the Rolling Stones to survive. :eek:

Degenerate

Mr.Brown wrote: »

Ireland. Potatoes. English Monarchy. Not renowned for Communist tendencies.

Yep, sheer unrestrained capitalism led to landowners exporting their crops while the local population starved.

StevieJ

Degenerate wrote: »

Yep, sheer unrestrained capitalism led to landowners exporting their crops while the local population starved.

Potato bight and high taxes on Corn were the main culprits.

fc123

vivatifosi wrote: »

Agreed. And I find Jordan a vile woman. But if you honestly think that people like me, fc, and anyone else who runs their own business (and in my case work 3 other jobs as well because of the downturn) are willing to earn the same as everyone else when we are the ones taking the risks, putting out butts on the line, keeping our skills out there, you are crazy. If I had to earn the same as everyone else, not be rewarded for going the extra mile, frankly I wouldn't run my own business, couldn't be arsed and would be contented to do the bare minimum.

If you think it works that well in non-capitalist countries take a good look at Cuba, where those that are well trained (such as doctors) earn less than those with access to hard currency through their jobs as cleaners and bar-tenders in Western hotels. It can't all be down to American blockades, workers in the former Soviet Union and Eastern bloc countries also earned less. You can't expect an egalitarian utopia. Human behaviour, under whatever system - capitalism, communism, feudalism, fascism, won't allow it.

If I am really honest with myself....would I work as hard and take the personal financial risks that I do every so often plus the hassle and responsibility to those we employ directly or indirectly if I took home the same as someone who works 9-5 PAYE in something fairly straightforward and stress free?
No, I wouldn't. I would just do 'enough' to get by and enjoy the free time.