I wanna find a new NHS dentist

Sithicus

Toothsmith wrote:

<How much is a cheap flight to Poland anyone?>

I'd wait if I were you - all their dentists are supposedly coming here!!

Not all - mostly young and ambitious ones

pennies2pounds_3

Lol just checked in my area and guess what ! NOT accepting any NEW NHS patients for treatment came up on every one !! . Good job I already have one

Tajak1000

iwannamotorbike wrote:

Hi

For the second time in as many years my current NHS dentist is going private.
Anyone know how to search for a NHS dentist on the net or even any advice on a NHS dentist in Chester, Cheshire?

Allan

You now have about as much chance of finding a new NHS dentist who will take you on as you do of finding an effective chocolate fire guard.

The New Contract, to be introduced in April, will not only force a large proportion of NHS dentists to go private, there will be no incentive for a practice to take on someone new. Practices will be paid a fixed amount of money to look after a fixed number of patients, specifically those that have been attending that practice on a regular basis. After April, so long as a dentist meets his targets, there will be no call for him to see new patients. My Primary Care Trust actually stated that I should not be seeing new people...... although whether I will stay in the NHS is now in doubt because the targets they are wanting to impose on me are unnacceptable.

And don't think building a new dental hospital will help. I wanted to bring a new dentist into my practice and take a load of new people on. The PRimary Care Trust said that if I did that it would have to come out of the money I was already being paid as they had no money for growth.

They have capped the dental budget at the present based on the number of dentists doing NHS dentistry now. THe government have also said they will only increase the fixed dental budget in line with inflation. So how are all these new dentists going to get paid............. the answer is they will simply be replacing the ever increasing numbers of dentists who are leaving on mass. Thousands of experienced, veteran NHS dentists will be replaced by cheaper, inexperienced new graduates and foreign dentists. Where the hell is the sense in that?

Tajak1000

Poppy9 wrote:

My rough costings include the cost of salaries of receptionists and dental nurses. I reiterate - does anyone know a poor dentist? The ones I know live in very expensive houses, take min of 3 holidays per year and have luxury cars. They do not pretend they have a poor standard of living.

I fully understand that graduates are not obliged to enter state service. It costs (per House of Commons response to MP question) an average of £140,000 over 5 years to train a dentist. I agree with a previous poster that they should be committed to providing NHS dentistry for x number of years. From info available on the web the quoted cost of training a solicitor is £10,000 as part of the cost is funded by private practice which a graduate needs to enter to complete their qualifications.

Here follows a RANT

According to a recent poll, 20% of NHS practice owners are in financial difficulty, 5% are close to bancruptcy. THe official Inland Revenue figures state that the average Private dentist does not earn any more than the average NHS dentist. The Inland revenue claim that the average dentist (NHS or private) earns around £60-70K wheras most GP's are on close to £100K (as a result of their nes contract), so i am curious where you got your figures from.

And yes some dentists have a very high standard of living, why the hell shouldn't they. Perhaps you know someone else who has the knowledge and skill to cure your agonising toothache. Perhaps you know of a non dentist skilled in the arts of cosmetic dentistry that can totally change a persons smile and thus life for the better. Maybe your next door neighbour can use his dremel to fix that broken filling. Dentistry is a highly skilled job that only a select few are able to do. Because of this, it carries a higher wage packet. It can also be a very stressful job, especially when you take into account that you are performing surgery on people.

You say that dentists who qualify should be commited to working in the NHS. Despite the average dentist qualifying with £30K of debt, what about all the other graduates. Should Journalists be forced to work for the bbc. What about architects, social studies, plumbers, joiners, geography students, political science, etc etc. Should these people, part funded by the tax payer all be forced to work for HMG. Will you accept a rise in taxes to accomodate this? I actually agree that it is a good thing for newly qualified dentists to work in the NHS (as it presently stands) because they can gather a lot of experience quickly. I assume though that governemnt would be willing to pay off the student loans, and pay for the continuing professional development with tax payers money - which presently costs me about £8K a year. So £140K plus £30K plus £40K gives us a grand total of £210K taxpayers money over 10 years. How about accomodation grants etc. What about maternity pay, sick pay, holiday pay etc. Seeing as how they will be employees and not self employed contractors, this will all add to the bill. Ends up costing the tax payer much more (see below).

The money spent on training dentists is very quickly repaid to the state in the TAXES they pay. If you tie them in for 5 years, they will earn a lot less than new graduates presently, and therefor the taxes taken off them will be considerably lower. But this is irrelevant, because up until now most graduates DID work in the NHS for upto 5 years. I have been in for over 10, and only now am i considering leaving. Why? Because the new copntract is an absolute abomination, which will do nothing to improve the health of my patients or the nation. I run a preventive practice, and to accept the new contract, I will actually have to stop doing my prevention work and do more treatments if i were to meet the targets that are to be imposed on me. Target driven healthcare is unethical. The provision of healthcare should be based on need, not based on some penpushers calculations. I am sure my patients will really appreciate that, especially as the new charges imposed by HMG are higher than many of my private fees. The average person will pay MORE for their NHS dentistry under the new scheme.

Unfortunately, under the new contract, the Primary Care Trusts do not have any money to give jobs to all these new graduates. They only have enough money to fund services already available. Only by a dentist leaving the NHS can PCT's fund a new dentist into the area. All these new graduates may well be forced to enter private practice, because there won't be anywhere for them to work, like thousands of doctors who are currently seeking employment in thie country.

And I know you won't believe this, because I am after all just a greedy dentist. But it is not actually about the money, because the contract value being offered to me is very lucrative. it is about quality of life, quality of care and doing the best for my staff and patients. Going private would actually mean a pay cut for me, but I am willing to accept that should things proceede on their present course.

You say dentists should "live in the real world". Why? Why should we accept adverse working conditions? Do you think the Unions of this country would accept a 30% increase in the level of work their members have to achieve to get the same pay. Do you think Union members would sit idly by whilst they are forced to work to a system of rules that is detrmimental to their health? We are, and always have been SELF EMPLOYED CONTRACTORS who contracted out time out to the NHS. Many of us chose to do this despite the adverse affects on our health and out finances. Our staff, family and ultimately our patients suffered because of the gradual governemnt erosion of the NHS system. This new contract is the last straw. Even the Tories are against it. Labour have out Thatchered the conservatives yet again. Not even Norman Tebbit would have come up with this scheme.

Doesn't matter of course, because in 3 years, NHS dentistry will be reduced to access centres staffed by recently graduated, inexperienced and unhappy dentists who will gladly take your tooth out for you....... but do little else. You can blame the dentists if you like, but at the end of the day it is government who devised this system AGAINST the advice of the dental profession, even against the advice of their own advisers.

NHS dentistry RIP courtesy of HMG

PS: Nobody has a right to recieve dental care. You were not issued with a warranty card when you left the womb. If you think you were, may I recomend you try popping down to Tescos and demanding free food - see how far you can go.

Toothsmith

From today's SUNDAY TELEGRAPH

jinxsi

Hi, just in case anyone is interested in DoH spin

Rosy Winterton on offering dentists £80.000 per year with £80.000 expenses.

Lies again. Dentists are not being offered this at all, they are being offered a sum based upon the gross turnover of their place of work between October 2004 and September 2005.

Rosy Winterton saying she knows dentists like the new way of working because so many signed up for the pilot schemes.

Lies again. The "unit of dental activity" (UDA) target scheme has not been piloted so no one knows whether they will like it or not. Most are seriously skeptical. They signed up to something totally different.

Rosy Winterton on the new contract being successful because so many dentists are signing up to it.

Lies again. Dentists have the option of signing up to the new contract or going totally private. "Success" only refers to the governments' bullying of the profession, dentists are signing up to the new contract because they have little option.

Discrepancies in government UDA figures

The government line is that dentists are being given the same money as they earned previously (spookily in this particular spin line not £80.000 plus £80.000 expenses) for 5% less workload. Reliable calculations from dentists have shown the new workload target is as much as 40% higher.

The new contract will encourage prevention and allow dentists more time with their patients

Absolute garbage. When the new NHS dentistry targets bite NHS dentists will have to tailor treatments to fit targets and there will be little time to carry out prevention. Please ask your MP how prevention is remunerated in the new contract. Zero UDA's and hence zero pounds is the answer.

cheers
jinxsi

Tajak1000

Poppy9 wrote:

They are therefore quite happy for 2000 patients each (multiply by 4 for the 4 dentists in the practice) to go without a dentist. Nice committed health professionals (not). Obviously they are just looking forward to the £168,000 per year they will each collect. If you consider 4 dentist in one practice that equals £672,000 per year. If they employ 2 receptionists and 4 nursers that will cost approx. £90,000. Premises rent and overheads say £15,000. That leaves £567,000 between 4 = £140k each per year. Not a bad living for a 2/3rd cut in workload.

If they are truely private it should be like seeing a private doctor. You make an appointment when you need to see one and pay the one off cost. As most check ups take less than 15 minutes the cost should be no more than £17 (based on £140k per year for 40 hours per week, 52 weeks per year = £67 per hour).

Dentist discussion thread

£15K for rent and overheads. Blimey, where can I buy this dental practice. I ruin a 2 surgery NHS practice, and these were my direct costs for the running of the business in the last tax year:

Wages: £40K
Materials: £12K
Lab bills £14K
Staff PAYE £7K
Accountant fees £4K
Bank loan (for practice which I own and maintain) £20K
Insurance £3K
Repair and renew £8K
Misc £20K

You cannot compare us to GP's. Their premesis are paid for them, as are their costs. Dentists are self employed contractors who own their own premesis and pay all their own costs. So as well as treating patients, they are also trying to run a business. Dental practices are very expensive places to run. Quality dentistry will now cost money, you just need to decide whether you are willing to pay for it.

And if you want to pay as you go, there are plenty of private dentists around who will do that for you. Denplan is not as widespread as people think.

SeriouslyStressed

Lucky you ( anyone who HAS a dentist ( of any sort ) or is able to find one taking people.

Up here in Cumbria. there are NO DENTISTS ( private or NHS ) taking ANY PATIENTS!!! ( in a 70 mile radius )

My teeth are falling apart ( by that I mean most fillings I have, and I have many, have fallen out, broken etc.. which has resulted in cracked teeth, rot setting in.... ( where a filling once lived but is now exposed ) and a nasty looking diagonally ( for it's length on an amalgam post ) broken front crown, and a blackening front tooth ( had a filling in rear of it, but it came out.)
I could go on, but you get the idea, ( pictures freely available to all curious dentists, just ask and provide a contact point )

My mouth looks BL**dy awful, I have retreated completely socially, it's so embarrassing, and upsetting ( not to mention painful at times )..... and I can have NOTHING done about it. I can only get emergency ( i.e. extraction ) treatment if I'm in severe pain.

I have no job ( on incap long term ) and this is just the nail in the coffin lid of me never getting a decent job. I cant face anyone, mother does all my shopping and errands....it's truely pathetic and I know it.

I'm seriously stressed ( 13k debt, soon to be bankrupt ) and seriously depressed. I dont have a doctor anymore a she retired. It's difficult for me to speak, and eat.

I think I should set up a website. sponsor my mouth.co.uk......... and ask for £1 donations! ( still have the problem of no dentists to take the money though hmmm )

Mother says get em all pulled out and get dentures! ha! HOW? and with what?

no dentists! and anyways it'd still cost well over £300 for the extractions.

Dentistry in the UK is a shambles.
I fully understand WHY they are going private, they want to make a decent living, and provide decent quality services and the current Gov scheme, and soon to be new one, wont get them there y any stretch of the imagination.

I've resorted to self destistry in the recent past.... trying to glue back fillings that have fallen out, with superglue, (cyanoacrylate?) oops gives off cyanide gas. Expoxy resin does'nt work either, nor did my feeble attempt at gluing together my broken front crown with ceramics adhesive.... or many others......
Seems only genuine 3m ( o rother ) luting cement will stick back things in the mouth, but oh no, i'd have to using etching fluid, and have access to a decent UV lightsource! I had the mad idea that cold cast resin might do the trick but I've not bought any yet, and the setting times/saliva etc interaction would be a major problem. I'm not a dentist, so I cant buy the genuine supplies required anywhere ( not even over the net from america.. I tried )

This might seem off topic ( but it's related to the original post, and IS related to my debt free wannabe status. and it's a BIG HURDLE to me ever geting work to become a decent upstanding member of society ever again! )

Nobody would employ someone too embarrassed to open their mouths to speak, and I'm too withdrawn to speak anyways.

I'm up the creek without a paddle and my wee boat has a gaping hole in it ( as do my teeth ), and i've no tin to bail out.

My mouth is a ticking timebomb of PAIN.....( i know the feeling well )
and people in PAIN do extraordinarily stupid things to make the pain go away ( which scares me )

Oh i cant wait.... last time i nearly died, a litre of vodka ( hoping it'd numb the pain ) and 24 anadin extra ( over an 8 hour period )
It did'nt work by the way ( so dont try booze ).
All i ended up doing was getting a visit from an ambulance as I'd managed to phone them before passing out.