I wanna find a new NHS dentist

plumpmouse

Hi can someone clarify something for me.

Is a dentist not obliged to take on children on the NHS.

Ours has gone private so we don't go anywhere at the minute as we can't afford and as a result my son is not registered and nowhere wants to take him on.

donteatthat

I am a dentist and I will explain to you why I have come out of the NHS and for a drop in income....which blows your monetary theory somewhat out the water.
I'm sure alot of dentists will have read your enllightening post, so I hope you get your answers.
I got fed up with the free-for-all service I was having to provide. I got sick of patients who didn't have to pay for their treatment taking that as a carte-blanche to muck me about with missing their appointments, not being bothered to brush their teeth before they came in, being rude to reception staff, failing to complete their treatment, and generally taking the wee-wee. Some seemed to confuse an "ON CALL SERVICE" with "BECK AND CALL".
They spoilt it for the patients who did genuinely care.
I got sick of not having enough time to treat my more deserving patients, as the types of patient mentioned above would ring in pain and demand emergency appointments to sort out the things they hadn't bothered to return to have treatment on.
I got fed up with being treated like a government tax collector, and Im sure this was the reason for some of the disrespect we recieved from the patients we were trying to help.
I got sick of the underfunding from the government.
I got sick of seeing patients on what felt like a conveyor belt.
I got sick of waiting for the government to sort out our new contract, which by the way is supposed to make NHS working life better, but infact is actually just going to force alot more dentists to go private as they have failed to address the main issues.
FYI, just because we are trained by tax payers money this does not mean we have to work in the NHS. And why should it morally if we can provide a better service outside the constraints of the NHS? Are all solicotors forced to work with legal aid cases - No.Are alll teachers prevented form working in private schools? No. And so on.......dentists pay tax too, and think about the number of useless degrees there out there that we subsidise but get no service back in return.
In my experience the people who complained about even the cost of NHS treatment seemed to be the ones who expected everything for nothing. They always had money to pay for their mobile phones, acrylic nails, hair extensions and new clothes, but then whined about their "missed appointment charge".
If people spent more time looking at the reasons why they had bad oral health, and trying to correct that instead of neglecting their mouths, then blaming the dentists when they can't get to see one we would be moving forwards. In the meantime the dentists of this country are forcing people to put the correct value on their oral health by going private and charging fees more inline with what it actually costs to run a dental surgery.
I could go on all night......but I have better things to do quite honestly.
Oh, and by the way - I have a mixture of private patients, and no-one is forced to go on Denplan.
HTH,
donteatthat

Willowrose_2

In reply to all seeking NHS dentistry the best option is to ring the Contractor Service Agency for your area or NHS direct and they will tell you who is taking on new NHS patients. In reply to Poppy9 her post is grossly misinformed so some facts need to be put straight. It is true that the tax payer used to fund a university education. I am not aware that the person who receives that education is obliged to then work for the state in order to repay the tax payer. Are lawyers only allowed to do legal aid work? are actors only to work for the BBC? I am sure that many people who have obtained a degree at British universities do not feel that they owe the state anything. Why should dentists be different? As an NHS dentist I am not aware that I have earned more than my local NHS GP. The figures show that GP's earnings vastly outstrip dentists earnings-where did you get the idea that dentists earn more than doctors? I particularly liked your idea of the outgoings of a dental practice!!!!Where did you get your £15,000 from? do you seriously think that is the out going figure for a year!!!I presume that you have no idea that rent/mortgage is paid plus wages, Lab.fees(at least £1500 a month and that is for NHS work treble that for a lab doing private work),Materials(have you any idea how much local anaesthetic costs? amalgam, composite-that is the white filling material-alginate to take impressions with-the cost of the instruments - files and burs- I have just paid £600 for a new drill and I need at least 3 to keep in line with health and saftey regs.The list is endless and the costs to the dentist too.We pay for correct waste disposal,as well as service contracts for our equipment. Don't forget normal business costs of phone .post, printing etc. Plus we have to pay massive indemnity costs because of the sueing culture now common- that is a lot of money every month plus normal business insurances.In my NHS practice my bills(outgoings) are at least £5000 per month.
Do you know having reread this post I don't know why anyone would want to be an NHS dentist in this day and age. The british public have had the benefit of very high quality dentistry at rock bottom prices for years because each successive government has refused to fund it(nhs dentistry) properly. They have relied on the good will of UK trained dentists to provide a good nhs service in return for less and less money. Some people felt that they could not compromise the quality of service they provided and went private in order to give a good service to those that could payi.e. the correct rate for the job provided. VERY VERY few did it in order to line their pockets. Those of us left in the NHS know that we are at breaking point and that to go private is the only option we have left. Blame the government and not just this one for the failings of the NHS but DO NOT BLAME the dentists

shrek101

You ought to live in my town the worse town in the whole country for getting a dentist, as seen on TV last year.

The practise that was featured on TV managed to get a Dutch dentists, however she left due to a legal case in Holland.

My mother in law moved back to our town late last year, she had hell of a job to get a dentists which in the end was a foreign on. I have no objection to the people who come over here but far better to have a British dentists rather than deprive an another area unless there a surpluss in that area.

Anyhow on last week on local paper went to this dentist for a check-up to be told she needed 6 fillings think that was correct. Turned out after seeing two other dentist that's she didn't need this work.

So I wonder how many others are doing this.

I also think the government (think it was under Tory then) shouldn't of closed that establishment that trained them, and that all dentists should sign up an agreement to not leave NHS control without seriously financial penalty. However in return they should be paid a reasonable amount and should be determined under an independent control.

I find it remarkable that he thinks because you many people get free treatment that they are some what people who mess them about, and don't brush there teeth and are rude.

If people are rude fine refuse them, if they don't turn up without a genuine excuse fine, fine them my dentist wont treat people unless they pay a fine ex amount per minute late. I agree totaly with what he does, and hes a decent fellow.

However how can ony same they just because you pay you are somewhat better client. I have come across some rich people are are arrogant, selfish greedy snobs but I wouldn't say everyone is like that hopefully its the miniority.

You ought to hear some of the awful stories I hera in my local paper/radio about people having to YES pull there own teeth put with pliers, now something needs to be done.

donteatthat

lol I didnt suggest that my more "deserving" patients were ones who were paying. I had plenty of lovely, genuine, decent non-paying patients and I had no problem with treating those patients. Like all systems tho, there are some that abuse it, and in my experience the main abusers were non-payers. They expected mountains movced for them, at their convenience only, and two-fingers to everyone else.
Maybe thats a symptom of the area I was working - not too far from Scarborough actually.

Queenie

donteatthat wrote:

.......... They expected mountains movced for them, at their convenience only, and two-fingers to everyone else.
Maybe thats a symptom of the area I was working - not too far from Scarborough actually.

Oooh err!!! Actually, I think that that is the way society is going now - not just an attitude extended to Dentists! (Nor determined by income!!). The "I-want-it's-MY-right-and-I-demand-it-now-or-I'm-going-to-blah-blah-blah attitude does appear to be more prevalent these days!

I think it is a crying shame that the NHS, in *all* it's services, is being steadfastly eroded. But, as we all know, those in Government who are creating these situations can well afford to BE private patients; sadly, once again, it's your good old Joe Bloggs who is paying the *real* price

Yet again, it's the minority who have ruined things for the majority - whichever way you look at it

endojedi

Being an NHS dentist is like driving a car at 90 miles an hour, it can work for a while but it isn't safe for the driver or the passenger or other road users!
Being a private dentist is like driving a car at 45 miles an hour, both passenger and driver get there and don't cause any carnage on the way.
Efficiency in dentistry is not the same as effectiveness.
I am a dentist and think that middle man insurance schemes like denplan are a con.
Get yourselves a fee per item private dentist, who comes recommended from a friend who has seen the dentist for >5 years.
If you are quoted for a lot of treatment, say that you are stuck for cash at the moment and could any of it be prioritised/delayed.
Most dentists will respond very sympathetically to honesty, and level with you about what can be delayed.
In dentistry you should look for value for money.
Like cheap parachutes and cheap contraceptives, bargain dentistry will cost you more in the long term.
Take it from an insider!!!

Poppy9

3 friends are dentists. 1 private, 2 nhs. Two relations are Dental Nurses and one is practice manager. Also friendly with a couple of GP's. Dentists all admit to earning more than GP. Also admit they would be financially better off in private practice. Their complaints weren't with patients - perhaps they were lucky with their practices just with nhs paperwork etc. In my practice the only person late for the appointment was the dentist. At least 15 minutes often 30 minutes. I like others accepted this as I appreciate its not possible to be totally accurate with appointment times. It seems strange that people who do not bother to brush their teeth bother visiting the dentist.

My rough costings include the cost of salaries of receptionists and dental nurses. I reiterate - does anyone know a poor dentist? The ones I know live in very expensive houses, take min of 3 holidays per year and have luxury cars. They do not pretend they have a poor standard of living.

I fully understand that graduates are not obliged to enter state service. It costs (per House of Commons response to MP question) an average of £140,000 over 5 years to train a dentist. I agree with a previous poster that they should be committed to providing NHS dentistry for x number of years. From info available on the web the quoted cost of training a solicitor is £10,000 as part of the cost is funded by private practice which a graduate needs to enter to complete their qualifications.

Tax payers are already paying for health care - dentists are always telling us that oral healthcare is as important as body healthcare - via our NI contributions. So to say we are not investing in our own oral health is incorrect. We have not had a service at rock bottom prices. In addition to handing over 8% of our salary in NI contributions (this excludes the employers contribution) we also pay additional cost everytime we visit the dentist. A root filling just cost a relative £100. Being a working single parent with limited income meant she had to wait 2 months to afford the treatment. What about people who cannot afford this extra cost. It all sounds very reasonable to say it's costs from just £14 per month but for a family of four that is £56 - nearly £700 per year.

It was recently reported a teenager died because of a mouth abscess that he couldn't get treated quickly because there were no NHS dentist in his area.

From the two dentists who have posted I still cannot see a substantial reason for them going private. No reason has been given why they are happy (in my practice at least) for 2/3rds of their patients to be left with a dentist. Ok so you are fed up with your terms and conditions. Welcome to the real world. Ask anyone if their conditions have been eroded over the years and they will say yes. Retail staff now have to be available to work over 7 days per week. Shops only close for Xmas day. Ask them how they feel. Sadly they do not have the luxury of going private - even though many shops are providing an essential service. They too would like shoppers to pay more for their shopping to give them better working conditions and wages but it won't happen. (no I am lucky I donot work in retail).

Toothsmith

<However how can ony same they just because you pay you are somewhat better client.>

I dont think he was saying that. He said 'more deserving patients' there was no mention of whether they paid or not

<I have come across some rich people are are arrogant, selfish greedy snobs>

So have I!! And when I converted my practice to private 5 years ago, most of them thankfully left, to search out some other mug on the NHS whose life they could then make a misery. The rest I asked to leave!

What a lot of people seem to miss in this argument is that it is NOT the people with the least money who are forced out of dental care by a dentist switching to private care, it is those who VALUE the service the least.

Even though I kept a lot of my NHS patients who were exempt from charges on the NHS when I converted (I just got rid of the pains in the bottom who mucked me around) Many of those NHS patients asked to go private (And joined Denplan!) in order to access the extra services I was providing. I Added two new surgeries to my practice and brought in hygienists and generally really got going with a truly preventative dental service.

Exactly the sort of thing the Government now wants to throw out the window with it's 'new contract' ( do you remember the press reports when the NICE agency made it's recommendations that more people could go longer than 6 months in between check ups? - Have you asked yourselves why that report came out? Could it be to do with the right royal c**k up the Government have made over NHS dental provision, or do you believe you can go 2 years in between dental visits?

People who value a service will pay for it - look at all the Sky dishes in run down housing estates. Those that see no value in healthy teeth will moan at even the paultry NHS fees.

Poppy, I did think your figures for expenses were quite accurate, until I realised you were talking PER YEAR!!! Come on love! What planet are you from? Premesis rent & overheads £15 000 per year!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

Have you any idea of the red tape and general crap we have to put up with in terms of regulations, insurances, waste disposal. I also notice you have us working 40 hours per week, 52 weeks per year. To make your figures right, we'd need a patient in the chair being worked on for every minute of those 2080 hours. When do I get to do the paperwork? When can I take my wife & two boys on holiday? when am I supposed to go on courses to keep my skills up to date (And that I have to fund out of my own pocket?)

Your bit about Denplan is not correct either, although I do know some practices that do only see patients who sign onto a scheme. (Denplan is just one of many, although it probably is the most well known). I guess you are just basing you comments on personal experience. I have Denplan Patients, and fee-per-item patients too. So long as the bills are paid, I don't really mind.

In reply to Plumpmouse, dentists are independent contractors, and they can say who they take on and who they don't. Children, adults, smelly people, idiots who expect them to work 52 weeks per year, anyone.

This new contract which the Government is trying to force through, (but keep delaying - originally it was supposed to be April 2004, then it was delayed to Oct 04, now it's Apr 05) Will make matters a lot worse. The only dentisits left in the NHS will be the ones who really don't believe they can convert their practices for one reason or another, or those approaching retirement and holding out for the (it must be said) rather good NHS pension.
I myself am planning to privatise childrens services as well, just because I cannot be forced to take responsibility for the dental health of my child patients if I am directed by the powers that be to only see them yearly.

Never has the old adage been truer - YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

I will leave you all with a question. If you are all really concerned that the poorer members in society have no NHS dental care, then why don't those of you who can afford it, join a private dental practice, pay your £10-20 quid a month and free up some places in NHS practices for these poor souls?

nearlyrich

We have a problem with dentists or lack of dentists in East Lancashire, a guy was on TV earlier in the week because he goes to Poland for dental treatment rather than pay a private dentist in his home town. Personally I think that's going a bit far no pun intended but there have been queues for 3 hours for a new practice which opened nearby with 1000 NHS places after all the other local dentists either retired or went Private only.


My own dentist of 30 plus years standing went private in 1991, on NHS rates I pay about £30 per year for 2 checkups and scale and polish, the Denplan minimum in 1991 at this practice was £15 per month. So why would I want to pay an extra £150 for exactly the same service ? I declined the invitation to be fleeced explaining that I pay quite a substantial amount of NI contributions every month and didn't want to pay extra for the only service I could get value from.

I managed to get us all registered with another NHS dentist fairly locally and he is a much better dentist than the previous one so the story has a happy ending, for now. Next problem is this dentist is almost ready to retire so we will have to start looking for a new dentist again. How much is a cheap flight to Poland anyone?

Just for the record I have always cleaned my teeth in the waiting room bathroom before seeing the dentist, always paid my bills on leaving the surgery and never abused a receptionist or dentist even if they deserved it.:p