I wanna find a new NHS dentist

audoen

Dear Poppy,
you may remember that you asked that some dentists should consider a reply to your original question, or more accurately your accusation that they were primarily personally financially motivated in their decisions to reduce their NHS commitments or leave the service entirely.
It probably surprised you that so many chose to answer your accusation.
I suspect that at this stage to only people reading these messages are the dentists who answered your call and yourself. The rest of the contriubuters have better things to do.
From what I have read your questions has been answered honestly and in full, and you should by now be drawing the inevitable conclusion that your initial assumptions and financial calculations were way off the mark.
You are in danger of becoming a characature of somebody digging themselves into an ever deeper hole.
You say that you have the benefits of a third level education and that you ran a business. The first assertion is not hard rto believe these days, but the second causes me some concern. Anyone who has run a business for any time would not make the simplistic assertions that you have in relation to business expenses. Your gross estimates for some major expenses may be right for your area, but you could just about double them for the South east of England. However it is the hundreds of recurring and other occasional unplanned minor expenses which can reduce profitibility and drive any business to the wall. Therefore I for one do not rate your business expertise.
You say that you have friends who are dentists. Maybe you do, I have no way of checking, but I would respectfully suggest that you don't show them the vitriol you have posted on this site. They may not consider you to be a friend any more.
You have a problem with Jimmy lafferty.
I met Jimmy at a conference in Belfast 3 years ago, and a more decent young chap you couldn't hope to meet. At that time he told me of his enthuasiasm for working within the NHS. I, being quite a bit older and having once shared that enthuasiasm in earlier years, tried to warn him about the risks of attempting to provide a decent, ethical service for NHS fees.
I take no pleasure in seeing my predictrions come true. It is a great shame that cynical politicians and senior civil servants have taken advantage of the Jimmy laffertys of this world and screwed them to the point that realise that they have to get out of the NHS or go to the wall.
You may choose to disbelieve his figures, and those of others, which amply demonstrate that an ethical dentist might be better off working as a junior manager in Dixons than working entirely within the NHS. But what you believe does not make much difference. Most dentists don't care what you believe. They know that many of their colleagues have gone bust. Some have even committed suicide. They know that the Department of Health mandarins and New Labour politicians are mostly a bunch of duplicitous liars.
For every person like you with a poisonous dislike for all dentists there are countless others who understand the problems and appreciate a professional service. They may not want to pay for it, but they believe that HMG is trying to shaft every dentist in the land and they won't stand for it.
Therfore the dentists don't need you, and your wretched attitude.
Now that leaves you with the problem.
Audoen

Sofa_Sogood

audoen wrote:

It probably surprised you that so many chose to answer your accusation.
I suspect that at this stage to only people reading these messages are the dentists who answered your call and yourself. The rest of the contriubuters have better things to do.

Not this contributor

I'm finding the whole topic fascinating, and learning, just by reading this, how this Government works. Or doesn't perhaps.

Only last week I was tutting about the money my husband paid out to his dentist. I'm seeing things in a different light this week.

Thanks, it's a very topical discussion which I've enjoyed reading.

DownintheMouth

Dear poppy9 and others,

I am a Dentist (yes another one) and I can assure you that no-one is more annoyed/frustrated/helpless at the continued demise of NHS Dentistry than Dentists and their teams!!!

By all means blame us if you wish, but at the end of the day everyone paid their National Insurance to Government for their healthcare and politicians keep telling us and the public, that Health includes Dentistry. So who exactly isn't delivering that promise?

By all means go off on an "Anti-Dentist" campaign if you must - I can assure you that will not restore what was once a system that Dental workers were actually proud to be a part of, what seems mny years ago now.

I am in the very sad position of seeing NHS Dentists go bankrupt - I think it's about 100 per year. They get no sympathy because (obviously) they are perceived as rich or privaledged according to everyone else. Therefore their bankruptcy must have been caused by their own neglect/stupidity/fault, not by an inadequate NHS Dental system.

Unfortunately reality doesn't match this popular myth, with Dentists having the highest suicide rates of all healthcare workers and the third highest of all Professions. I won't mention early retirements due to chronic illnesses, bad backs etc, or depression caused by constant bad public press, people telling us they "hate the Dentist" on a daily basis and the high-tech, high manual skills required to treat minute teeth with even smaller holes with a high-speed drill doing 400,000 revs a minute with a diamond bur on a twitching patient, on a back tooth inside their body.

Who would be a Dentist ? Good question, you would have to be really dedicated to the job, otherwise one could easily go sideways into another saliva/blood/decay/rotting-food free profession like Law or Accountancy etc.
They certainly are not foolish enough to be totally limited by state funding cuts!!!

However I actually like my job despite the increasingly occuring pitfalls.
I believe Dentistry should be truly NHS - remember what that means!!!

Currently Dentistry is NOT National, not Health and not a Service - no wonder the public AND the Dental profession feel SO let down.

Let down by whom? Government, plain and simple and they want you, the public to bame the workers!

Also, why, if it's NHS, is the maximum patient's charge £378 ?

No-one pays to see their GMP, GMP's are so well funded compared to Dentists that they nearly have all had extensions paid for and added onto their Surgeries in the past and now many are moving on into Purpose Built complexes, again paid for by Government through PFI (that's Private!) funding initiatives, virtually cost-free to the doctors!

Good luck to Doctors, they deserve EVERY penny and more, yet even they still feel hard done by the NHS system - it still makes them do too much paperwork, spend less time with patients etc,etc.

NHS Dentists could only DREAM of been treated like this - indeed I know Dentists would actually take a substancial pay cut IF all their overheads, especially the buildings, high-tech equipment like digital X-rays, mouth cameras, lasers etc. were covered by Government. But they are not and NHS Dentists must carry ALL the risk/loans. Can you imagine asking Hospital Consultants to "fund" their own hospitals and staff, high-tech equipment etc and still stay totally NHS for decreasing funding etc?

If NHS Dentists had full capital and overheads funding, they could then practice to the high standards they were taught to - Wow.

I totally resent that I should have to reduce my commitment to the NHS because the gross funding, as wonderful as it may sound to you or any other member of the public, is so inadequate that I cannot provide Dentistry to the standards I was taught at University - let alone actually apply the new, advanced techniques I then learn on further courses etc.

Why should I HAVE to seek Private funding, directly from patients, so that I can asure them of my BEST standards, adequate time and the proper care they deserve?

I have 20 years experience, spent mainly in the NHS. I'm a reaonably skilled Clinician who has kept up to date. I cannot properly numb then fill or extract a tooth in a child in less than 30 mins, if this is to not hurt the child. I want that child to have a "good" Dental experience, even when they have stayed away and only come when a problem hurt, but could have been prevented in the first place.

Similarly, I wish to treat adults with the same amount of care and attention and skill, in what is after all a distressing situation for everyone.

So when some administration from the NHS comes in and says I have to "rush" this job and do it in half my normal time, should I?

Which corners of care would you like me to cut, to meet NHS targets?

Many Dentists are faced with such unsavory choices - as much as I dislike "going" Private, my choices are reduce my clinical standards and stay "NHS" in name, or seek proper funding for proper care from the Patient/parent!

Some other Dentists are lucky though and ARE getting some additional NHS funding/grants/advantages over the majority of "Family" Dentists, to see mainly toothaches in the very worst areas, so NHS direct can say there's a service. An example of this is the 48 Dental Access Centres (DAC's) that have been given £1millon pounds each to work - Wow!

Again, most Dentists can only dream of anything like this kind of funding, even in the Private sector in the middle of London!

So I want you to keep protesting Poppy9, and all you others, at MP's. The money is there to fund NHS Dentistry so that it's available to everyone AND free of costs too - just like for Medical Doctors.

It has only been through public protest at Government that they have "found" some extra funds for some "lucky" other few Dentists - keep the political pressure on before this next general election (in May?) ad maybe we'll get some improvement.

But please, please, please don't blame it all on Dentists, otherwise government Spin will have worked and you can guarantee the collapse of what is left of this "partial" Dental NHS system - it will then go the route of the Opticians, 90% Private!

I believe Government has more than enough funds to give everyone FREE NHS Dentistry and upport Dental Practices like Hospitals/Doctors for overheads - it would cost £4Billion a year compared to the curret underunding of £2Billion a year. However much that sounds, remember they are spending anywhere between £6Billion and the latest estimate of £30 Billion Just on a new NHS appointment system!

Which would you rather have - a true NHS Dental service UK, or a new "flash" computerised NHS appointment system that will probably crash abd turn out to be a white Elephant anyway.

I would LOVE to be able to come back into the NHS, but unfortunately Government Spin is still far removed from that possibility - so please protest LOUD and protest at the right quarters = MP's pre-Election !!!

Yours just as frustrated,

DownintheMouth.

paul4798

Well I have had a look and found the following for you go to this page:-http://www.nhs.uk/england/dentists/MapSearchResults.aspx?pct=5H3

digh

As a rich "single handed" NHS dentist I suppose I shouldn't moan, but since we're on the subject of why it's hard to find NHS dentists these days I feel I can contribute.
For those wishing to follow in my toothsteps this checklist may help.
As a single-handed dental practitioner you will have to learn to contend with inter alia:-
the Access to Medical Records Act, case reports, clinical waste,
confidentiality issues, consent, COSHH, credit licensing, cross
infection control, the Data Protection Act, the Disability Discrimination Act,
electrical testing, emergencies, fire regulations, first aid, fraud, the
Health and Safety Act, inspection and testing of all your equipment, your dental
laboratories, specialist referrals, the Medical Devices Directive, pathology specimens, radiology,
RIDDOR, solicitors, sterilisation and pressure vessels, vaccinations,
VDU regulations, water regulations and written policy documents e.g.
practice manuals. Absenteeism, appraisals, contracts
of employment, discipline, discrimination, firing, gifts, hiring,
interviewing, holidays, hygienists, locums, maternity and SMP,
paternity, part-time workers, operating a PAYE system, student loans,
stakeholder pensions, references and statutory sick pay.
Business rates, complaints, banks, consultants, credit cards, fee scales, leasing, merchant
services, logos, buildings insurance, personal health insurance, car insurance, public liability insurance, third party payment plans, the Dental Practice Board, Regional Dental Officer inspections, Dental Practice Advisor inspections, Primary Care Trust representatives, staff training, Xmas parties, your accountant, your bank manager, junk mail, marketing, suppliers, repairs, computers, drugs, gases, light bulbs, fire extinguishers, waiting room decor, air conditioning and web sites.
You also have to be an expert on adhesive resins, cements, amalgam, bad breath,
bleaching, diet, endodontics, needlestick injuries, the NHS, articles in
the newspapers, nickel, white fillings, implants, tooth germs, ozone and prescribing.
You will also need to design and delegate production of practice
information leaflets, signs, opening time notices, staff badges, appointment cards, childrens
stickers, checklists, compliments slips, daylists, diet analysis sheets,
labels for tablets, leaflets, letterheads, mailings, failed appointment
letters, private fee guides, quotations, receipts, prescriptions, rubber stamps, time-sheets and Xmas cards.
If you are unlucky you may also be required to cope, in no particular
order, with the delights of rent reviews and surveyors, leasing
regulations and subletting, parking problems, vandalism, security
alarms, flood protection, the PRS, the BSA, passport applications,
firearms applications and bad debts. If all this seems too easy I
suppose you could also apply to register for VAT as well!
Plus you have to do your main job (dentistry - the bit you get paid for) and have a family life.
Finally, assuming you live long enough, selling your practice. Apparently, although I haven't done this yet, selling your dental practice can be very stressful and take a long time as well.

aloha_2

Aloha

I must first mention that I too am a dentist who 15 years ago was on the point of bankruptcy when I decided to give up NHS Dentistry before the arrival of the bailiffs.

Poppy9 is indeed a charicature of the type of patient who does not care who pays for her dental treatment as long as it is not her.

She states that she has had very little need for treatment over the years so her dental outgoings are negligible so pay as you go would seem to be a better bet for her than any insurance scheme on which she would lose out long term. Of course if her needs were higher and insurance would be a good buy then she might be keen but her dentist would then lose out so (s)he might not be so keen to take her on on that basis.

I am not surprised she seems to no longer be in business as she seems to wilfully ignore the figures that do not accord with her own ramblings and this may be a factor in her change of status. If she can confirm that she was the Bill Gates of her generation then I am sure we will all be willing to pay handsomely (at NHS rates) to gather at her feet to await her advice on how we should profitably organise our lives to better serve her needs at the lowest cost (which she might still find exorbitant)

She seems steadfastly commited to her own point of view in spite of any advice to the contrary and in my experience this type of behaviour is to be found amongst a minority of teachers or a majority of politicians.

Dentists start out with a genuine enthusiasm for helping their fellow (wo)man
but there is a minority of whom poppy9 seems to be a member that sour their outlook.

Eventually you have to exclude these people from your life for your own sanity and for the sake of those around you.

I would think that as this person claims to have friends who are dentists and doctors then she ought to be able to persuade some of the dental ones to take her on as a patient. If she can not then there must be a reason and I would surmise it is because they know first hand what a handful they would be taking on. All most dentists require are I would suggest are reasonable patients who are prepared to pay a reasonable fee for a reasonable service and to have reasonable manners whilst they are about it.

We all gel with different people and I am sure poppy9 will find the dentist for her eventually.

It will probably just take longer for her than most people.

I wish poppy9 all the best in her search for the ideal dentist and I wish said dentist all the best once (s)he has been found.

Poppy9

Thank you to all the dentists who felt the need to persoanally attack me. A few dentists made sensible posts which I could identify with. Funny how so many of you are first time posters - as a 'old hand' at this MSE thing its very unusual. My posts were not personal to people - yours were. I only said on this forum what others are saying everyday in shops, offices, pubs etc.BBC

Yes you feel hard done by. So do 90% of the population. Every business proprietor is fed up to the back teeth (pardon the pun) with the excessive paperwork involved in running a business. Every year there are new rules and regs - especially if you are employing staff. I was shocked to read that the sucide rate for dentists was amongst the highest. You can see these statistics on the Govt. statistics site. govt stats



I have had no problem with the 2 dentists I have been with for 40 years. In fact they seem very eager to keep myself and my family. We are not abusive to dentists or doctors. We do not turn up late, we do not miss appointments, we do not turn up dirty and smelly, we pay all our bills on demand, we do not require much work. Seems like your ideal patients. Finally I would never want to be treated by a friend - for me this crosses boundaries.

Just for your info.I gave up my business to raise a family. I did not go bankrupt.

I am glad to say that the personal attacks made by new posters is not typical of more experienced MSE members. I too will take my leave and rejoin the real MSE members who do not become so abusive.

chpetros

Hey Poppy9, chill!
I'm sure noone meant to personally attack you in the first place, but dentists as a profession have been abused by the government and the NHS since year 1 when the service started 50 years ago. Since year 1 the government began cutting fees, making us work harder for the same money. And unlike other businesses, we have no control over the prices we command. So, 50 years of abuse has made us a little touchy with that subject, especially with those who put us in the "greedy dentists" stereotype and don't seem to get it after we explain it to them. It's all politics in the end, as is with most things that don't work right in this world.
As a moneysaver, please remember that "the bitterness of poor quality will remain long after the sweetness of low price has evaporated" (don't remember who said that). If you're looking for a good, safe car, you don't go for the cheapest one, if you're looking for a private school to send your kids to you wouldn't go for the one with the lowest quotation, so don't do the same with your teeth.

paul56_2

Dear Poppy
Sorry if you feel you've been insulted but if you refer to any group of people as 'con' men and 'blackmailers' (see your first post on this thread) then you are likely to get some pretty strong replies from those people.
Dentists on the whole are good people trying to a difficult job in difficult situations. Some of them have tried to explain those difficulties to you.
Take a step back, read their replies again and think.
Paul56

Willowrose_2

I am sorry that you have received personal invective from some of the dental posters and I appreciate that you have valid concerns but as a dental poster whose replies I think you have read I would still like to say that i do not understand your sums regarding outgoings. I know that the BDA states that outgoings are at least 52% of gross. how that equates with private v. NHS I am not sure but all I can say is that earning a living as an NHS denist is hard grind and I would not like to be in the south where overheads are very high.
The trouble begins when you have to start cutting corners to make ends meet and that is the main problem for the NHS dentist. In the spirit of complete honesty and in order to try to show how things really are this month my returns from the NHS are £8100 from this I have to pay out £6200. I am hoping that I can offset some bills by paying only a portion of some of the bills this month. Obviously these bills will still have to be paid next month but I hope that if I work extra hard next month I might have the money to pay them. I hate having outstanding bills I worry about it all the time. I think it is clear that you have genuine concerns about getting a decent standard of care but as you can see I have equally genuine concerns about my capability to provide it.
P.S. have just had small child telling me how much he loves me and demanding ten kisses!!! he is my priority not knocking myself out to provide a cheap service for all and sundry at the behest of the government. In future i will do the best for my beloved children and also for the loyal patients that I treat and am lucky to have and for whom i have the deepest respect.