I wanna find a new NHS dentist

shrek101

I actually get free dental due to me being on family credit. However I do value the job dentists do. I also appreciate that dentists do have some difficult customers but so do many other people who deal with the general public.

I don't pretend to know the ins and out as to why many are leaving the profession, some of it is down to money, but I am sure it not a true reflection of what is going on.

Perhaps if the government and the dentist profession got together and sorted this problem out and as I said before had an independent review regarding payments, hours etc

The general public are just piggy in the middle and ultimately are the ones that suffer particularly those who can least afford it.

Toothsmith

<How much is a cheap flight to Poland anyone?>

I'd wait if I were you - all their dentists are supposedly coming here!!

Toothsmith

If anyone is interested, there was an excellent program on radio 4 today. If you go to the BBC website, go to You and Yours, and click on 'listen again, you'll be able to hear it.

endojedi

Coming up to election time, both patients (Consumer Association) and dentists should be campaigning for tax relief for dentistry- after all the money is spent in the country,not on foreign imports and foreign holidays, the dentists pay tax on it (yes poppy at 40% cause we are all so bourgeois and it means the patients get something back for being proactive and looking after their oral health.

There should be a high quality core service for exempts and the NHS should only exist for these and children.

Why should taxpayers pay twice? -once for private dentistry and again for propping up the governments !!!!!! contract promising NHS dentistry for all.
The tory government let the private genie out of the bottle in 1992 with their 7.2% fee slash, and its never going to go back in.

The government is wasting YOUR money on dental access centres, recruiting dentists from third world countries and ploughing money into advertising the new contract which encourages dentists to supervise the neglect of their patients oral health and lie to them about how often they need to see a dentist.

Any middle man interference in the relationship between a patient and a dentist is unwanted whether that is a government contract or a capitation scheme like denplan.

NHS dentistry is the laughing stock of the world and dentists from the US advice their patients not to go near one, if on holiday and suffering toothache.

Britain is the 4th largest economy in the world, and should not have a prehistoric dental service!

ON Poppy's point about forcing dental graduates to work in the NHS after graduating-WE ARE NOT IN CHINA-dental students treat patients for free while in university, give up at least 5 years to train unpaid,are competitively selected on A level results having a minimum 2 A and a B, graduate with £15,000 worth of debt (soon to grow enormously with tuition fees),sit countless exams through training and have to work on the NHS for a year as part of Vocational Training.

Only rich kids could afford this if we implemented your plan--have you heard of the free market?

Remeber if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys!
I would retrain as a plumber, if I was forced to work on the NHS!!!!

LD

was going to mention this, as that is how I found mine

plumpmouse

In reply to Plumpmouse, dentists are independent contractors, and they can say who they take on and who they don't. Children, adults, smelly people, idiots who expect them to work 52 weeks per year, anyone.



Thanks for answering my question. I had thought someone had once told me that dentists were obliged to take on children. Obviously they were wrong. Thanks for clearing up my confusion.

weaver

Poppy9 wrote:

Weaver

Have you tried getting a private dentist to take you if you are not on Denplan? They only really want Denplan patients because they are assured of a set amount of money per month.

I too was going to use private health insurance until a colleague pointed out that no dentists locally would treat you privately if you weren't on Denplan.

Thanks for this Poppy9 Ive just checked with the dentist and as long as the fee is paid it does not matter who you are with, they give you a bill to claim fees back from the health insurance company. (glad you mentioned this though)

My dentist as stated wanted to charge me 10.00 a ,month, a friend I recommended a year ago has been given the option of paying 5.00 a month, the reason - they only attend once a year. Im sorry to all the dentists reading this but I feel this is unfair and unjust. A set fee should be equal for all, its like many insurance policies, some you win some you loose. I wouldnt mind but when I queried this with the dentist they said when you next visit the dentist assesses you and decides which policy is best. The paper work we both got stated 10.00, so you take out the policy and then find that you could have got away with 5.00 a month, it stinks.

Im NOT saying ALL dentists do this and Im not getting at all dentists, I just feel that my old dentist doing this is wrong. He also cancelled an appointment I had made 6 months earlier because he was going on holiday, (not got a problem with that - we all deserve one )the only appointment I could get was 6 months later when he had gone private ( seems a little suspect to me )

The dentist was excellant as many are and its not a job I would like, I think you all deserve medals as do any health care professionals but I feel the public is being let down mainly by the way the funding is going and this is run by Government ( thats another soap box debate)

chpetros

Here's exactly how much the government values your teeth:
A filling on a child pays less than a pizza.
A root canal treatment on a front tooth, on which outcome the future of your tooth depends on, pays less than a playstation game.
How can anyone expect a quality service with this kind of funding is beyond me. I have several american dentist friends and they all tell me the same thing: the quality of british dentistry they see is consistently the worst in the developed world. If one of their patients moves to or visits Britain, they warn him NOT to seek NHS dental treatment under any circumstances (this was actually reported in the parliament some weeks ago). They know of the money we're getting paid and they wonder how we're able to run a dental practice. Meanwhile, british oral health has been turned into an international joke (see the Simpsons and the "Big Book of British Smiles").
The fact is that NHS dentistry is grossly underfunded and the only way dentists are able to make money is by compromising treatment and cutting corners. Some do it a lot and get rich, others become frustrated and go private or get poor!
The government knows it cannot afford to pay for decent dentistry but they won't admit it. They tried to open their own practices and hire dentists to do the work, naming them Dental Access Centres (cool name, huh). It turned out that it took 5 times more money to treat each patient... they might have sent them off to a private dentist and saved a few of the taxpayers' quids! But no, "private" is anathema in this country that is rapidly turning into a socialist nightmare.
I'm tired of seeing patients on chronic benefits complaining because I charged them 10 quid due to their failure to attend a 30-minute appointment, while at the same time sporting TWO posh video camera mobiles. My mobile is 5 years old. I don't have a car and I live in a 1-bedroom flat. I once saw a patient 8'o clock in the evening, rid him of the "terrible pain" he was feeling, then asked for the 10 pounds I was entitled to under the NHS. He told me he didn't have any money, all while holding a bag with brand new trainers he had just bought before he came in. F**k those people and f**k the NHS.
I'm tired of having to see 30-40 patients a day while the politicians who whine about greed dentists get private treatment for their perfect white smiles. I don't want to get rich, but I want to work in humane conditions, using modern materials and equipment, like my colleagues in US, Europe, Australia, New Zealand,Japan, hell everywhere else, do.
For those of you who pay National Insurance contributions and expect something in return... tough luck, you're not going to get it. I pay contributions as well, which have expanded to a 8% supertax, and for what? So that I get 7 whole minutes with my GDP (7 minutes, for f**k's sake). Or that I have to wait 6 months to get an appointment with a consultant? That's a poor service and a disgrace of a health service. Maybe it's to support the poor soul who has been unemployed for a zillion years, gets drunk everynight and now he wants me to fix the teeth he's broken in last night's "fight with the lads". And of course he wants it done right away, and he won't bother to show up for 2-3 appointments, wasting the time I could spend with an OAP in genuine need.
I'm terribly sorry for my rant, but the NHS isn't any health service at all; it lies in shambles and dentistry isn't different. It's high time the government's monopoly in this field ended, so that everyone could start taking responsibility for his own health. As for myself, the first chance I get I'm getting off the circus operation that is NHS dentistry and I'm not ever looking back!

Poppy9

Toothsmith wrote:

What a lot of people seem to miss in this argument is that it is NOT the people with the least money who are forced out of dental care by a dentist switching to private care, it is those who VALUE the service the least.

You are assuming that all working people have the same level of income as yourself. Take a family of 4 with just 1 parent working as say a school teacher earning £30k per year. Can they afford to pay the £56 a month extra? Why should they on top of NHS. Is dentistry a health service?

or do you believe you can go 2 years in between dental visits?

Many have to due to lack of NHS dentists. In 20 years the only treatment I have required is 1 filling. My partner in 25 years has only had 1 filling. Do we really need to see a dentist twice a year or just a hygenist?

People who value a service will pay for it - look at all the Sky dishes in run down housing estates. Those that see no value in healthy teeth will moan at even the paultry NHS fees.

I reiterate - working people are already paying for this service through NI

Poppy, I did think your figures for expenses were quite accurate, until I realised you were talking PER YEAR!!! Come on love! What planet are you from? Premesis rent & overheads £15 000 per year!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

a £200,000 mortgage would cost £1000 per year. On top you have heating, electric, insurance. More than 1 dentist is often based in a practice.

Have you any idea of the red tape and general crap we have to put up with in terms of regulations, insurances, waste disposal. I also notice you have us working 40 hours per week, 52 weeks per year. To make your figures right, we'd need a patient in the chair being worked on for every minute of those 2080 hours. When do I get to do the paperwork? When can I take my wife & two boys on holiday? when am I supposed to go on courses to keep my skills up to date (And that I have to fund out of my own pocket?)

A simple calculation used to work out most people average wage. I forgot you dentists seem to think you have a right to a better life than the rest of us. If you saw 20 patients a week over a year that totals 1040 patients. Seeing them twice a year gives you 40 patients a week. If you wished to say have 10 weeks holiday a year then that is 48 patients a week. If you worked the average of 40 hours a week - like say police officers (which no doubt you expect to be a free service to protect you) then you have almost an hour per patient. Given that the majority just have a quick check up. Bags of time for paperwork.

Your bit about Denplan is not correct either, although I do know some practices that do only see patients who sign onto a scheme. (Denplan is just one of many, although it probably is the most well known). I guess you are just basing you comments on personal experience. I have Denplan Patients, and fee-per-item patients too. So long as the bills are paid, I don't really mind.

From mine and colleague and family experience. No one I know has been quoted less than £14 per month per person for joining.

Never has the old adage been truer - YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

Seems to be true. Middle class people who have lost touch with reality.

I will leave you all with a question. If you are all really concerned that the poorer members in society have no NHS dental care, then why don't those of you who can afford it, join a private dental practice, pay your £10-20 quid a month and free up some places in NHS practices for these poor souls?

Again you quote as if all members of a family are working. I reiterate most people only earn the average wage (thats why its the average) and feel they already contribute sufficently for this service. They are already paying for anything extra than a simple checkup as mentioned if you need a root filling on the NHS thats £100 please.

I am really sadden by the apparent selfishness of the replies from Dentists. As mentioned it costs over £140k to train a dentist. Second only to the cost of training a doctor. They have trained in a profession of which they know is essential to the public wellbeing. They knew when entering the profession what the employment conditions and rewards were. They seem to have tried to blackmail the government into abandoning efforts to contain costs.

I leave you dentists with a question. If you need an ambulance at an accident would you be happy to pay an extra £15 per month for this service or else make your own way to the hospital. If you need a police officer to attend a crime at your house would you pay £15 per month in case you need this service. These groups of people work long unsocialable hours. Could you working from 7pm to 7 am dealing with all sort of crimes and people and injuries. They truley risk their life do you? Doctors make life and death decisions everyday - do you? These people all work longer hours than dentists for less money. You too have a monopoly and yet are full of self righteousness and pity.

jinxsi

I turned private recently and this is why.

Back in 1992 the government cut funding to NHS dentistry by 7%. Funding for NHS dentistry has been cut every year since. Initially I coped just tightening the purse strings etc but eventually I reached the stage where I had to make choices about closing down and moving on or taking some radical steps. A dentist friend of mine went bankrupt at this time.

After 18 years of 100% NHS dentistry I decided to subsidise NHS treatment through doing some private treatment. This worked and the practice finances recovered. As annual NHS dentistry funding awards were being remorselessly outstripped by dental inflation I had to continually increase the percentage of private to NHS just to stay on level ground.

Another crisis point was reached about 3 years ago when again practice finances deteriorated and something had to be done. I took a risk and invested in technology that allowed me to carry out high tech private dentistry. This worked and about 2 years ago we reached a situation where we were 50% NHS and 50% private and practice finances were stable. We were still taking on NHS patients and providing quality care. NHS patients were oblivious to being subsidised and private patients were oblivious to subsidising them.

Then came a huge influx of NHS patients. They came from miles away and they had mouths full of cavities and needed loads of dentistry….NHS dentistry. We coped initially, appointment waiting times went from 2 –3 weeks to 2-3 months and the ratio of NHS to private went the wrong way and the practice finances started to go haywire again. My way of stabilizing finance and get back to providing a decent service for all my patients was to stop taking new NHS patients. This allowed me to slowly work through the huge influx of NHS treatment that I had taken on. Eventually, as my NHS : private ratio worked its way back up to 50% stability returned.

Its important to appreciate that the only way I can stay in business in the NHS is through my private income subsidizing NHS treatment.

Then came the news of the new contract. I wont go into these details but suffice to say there was enough uncertainty and DoH threats to make me worry about my ability to mix NHS and private treatment in the future. I was also concerned that the DoH would make it more difficult for dentists to leave the NHS once they signed up to the new contract. …there’s a lot more that I wont go into.

I felt I had no choice but to selectively withdraw from the NHS. I continue to treat exempt patients and children on the NHS and I have set fees for private patients that I feel are very realistic. My objective is not to get rich quick, but to be able to continue to provide a good service for my patients and remain solvent.

I did not want to leave the NHS, in leaving I have lost a reliable well paid job and a fabulous pension but I felt pushed out and I cant help feeling that the government agenda is to get as many dentists out of the NHS as possible….but that’s just the conspiracy theorist in me.

Personally I feel that the best solution for dentistry in this country is for the available government budget for dentistry to pay for comprehensive treatment for children and exempt patients and a core service for everyone else. If they want comprehensive treatment for all on the NHS then funding must go up by about 100%….and some of that must go to dentists. Recently the government has allocated millions for “dentistry” but the NHS dentist is getting 2% this April - that is not going to attract dentists back from the private sector.

Anyway, for anyone who has got this far here are a few personal statements:

Expenses for the tax year 2003 – 2004 were £132 000 (single dentist)
I hate denplan
I have seen poor dentists, even bankrupt ones.
Some doctors earn more than some dentists and visa versa….obviously.
The government is throwing money away with both hands opening access centers, can someone table a question at prime ministers questions asking how much access centers cost?
IMO it is impossible to carry out quality dentistry in a practice funded only by NHS.
I don’t understand the “I pay my NI therefore I am entitled to NHS dentistry” argument.
Why isn’t NHS dentistry on the NHS escalator?


Bye
Jinxsi