Prohibited right turn on CCTV

plum24

I wont be on here for a couple of hours, going to pick up PCN number 3. Thanks again for all the help, Plum :wave:

FOA: peter_the_piper... i have posted on pepipoo so will let you know if i get any info there. Thanks again.

plum24

Hi im back with the third (and hopefully final PCN) it is also just the one page both front and back:

FRONT http://i45.tinypic.com/709c9d.jpg
BACK http://i49.tinypic.com/1629sac.jpg

1.) http://i47.tinypic.com/1z6xdw2.jpg
2.) http://i50.tinypic.com/2vd5yfa.jpg
3.) http://i50.tinypic.com/2yxkylf.jpg
4.) http://i49.tinypic.com/29dw843.jpg

I cant thank you enough for all the help and advice, i have also posted on Pepipoo (thanks peter_the_piper for the recommendation) they have echoed that there are perhaps flaws with the PCN and that it is very possible that the sign is 'illegal' unless the have specific permission, which is what i will need to find out.
Thank you again, if you spot anything else you think i could use please give me a shout, i will repost in a bit when i have done some more research.
Plum.x

flyingscotno1

I've never seen such a sign like the right turn one there, so would be rare and surprised if it does have permission as there are other ways you can signs such things but you never know.

At least you have options rather than loosing a substantial wedge of cash!

Tony_

Heres what the dft say about that sign: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/tsmanual/tsmchapter3.pdf (page 33)

618.1 No vehicles except for access
May be used only in combination with a sign to diagram 617. See para 5.7 for permitted variants

5.7 Elsewhere, diagram 617 is used with the plate to diagram 618.1 to indicate that vehicles are prohibited. The legend may be varied as below but must always include the words “No vehicles”. The permitted exceptions allowing entry into the street are:

(i) for access
(ii) for loading (or “for loading by” plus the lorry symbol)
(iii) permit holders (with or without an identifier)
(iv) disabled badge holders (blue badge symbol)
(v) buses (or local buses) – see para 15.29
(vi) taxis
(vii) for access to off-street premises
(viii) any appropriate combination of the above

(note that (ii) and (vii) must not be used with “for access”).

plum24

hi tony thanks for your reply, sorry to be so dim, but what does all that mean (in simpleton terms :embarasse ) Does it mean that the sign in the pic is perfectly legal?

missile

Signs look to be very clear to me. They are prominently positioned and not obstructed. I don't understand how you could miss them?

I am not judging you, any of us can make a mistake. I was once caught and fined for a similar offence where the sign which said no right turn with a little placard below X2. I turned at the second junction.

I recall a driver who was excused multiple speeding offences, at the same fixed camera location. I believe he argued that if he had been stopped by a policeman he would have been more careful in future. A smart solicitor might be able to get you off with one penalty?

I would suggest you are fortunate to be receiving only a financial penalty, if a policeman had spotted your manouver, I think you could be looking at points on your license?

roddydogs

An obvious money making scheme-that's why the cameras there. But it looks legal to me.

DrScotsman

Tony_ wrote: »

Heres what the dft say about that sign: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/tsmanual/tsmchapter3.pdf (page 33)

How precisely do they have to adhere to these rules?

I know I'm probably being completely daft, but I just thought it'd be worth mentioning that it says "buses" is a permitted variant...not "for buses"

flyingscotno1

Tony_ wrote: »

Heres what the dft say about that sign: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/tsmanual/tsmchapter3.pdf (page 33)

Unless I missed something that is the access sign, the PCNs are for ignoring a no right turn sign. If you read 4.14 in that document it gives you an indication on the plates you can add to the sign and nothing looks like the sign the OP shows in this photo. http://i45.tinypic.com/35jeb09.jpg The No right turn sign is fine it is the 'No Vehicles 6am-10am except buses' bit that makes the sign incorrect. Whilst the signage warning of an access restriction further in might be correct I do not think the PCN are correct to fine you for an illegal right turn unless the council have authorisation from the DfT for that sign and we know how often they bother with that.

missile wrote: »

Signs look to be very clear to me. They are prominently positioned and not obstructed. I don't understand how you could miss them?

I disagree. You say the signs are clear, I don't think they are. Whilst there is a case for seeing the no right turn sign and simply following that, the plate below has far too much information for driver to take in at speed and a drivers attention is focused on a crossing not a sign at that point.

Equally Figure 4-4 of the PDF linked suggests putting a no right turn on both sides of the road to aid a driver, although not compulsory.

The books give a number of signs to be put up beneath a right turn sign. Things like 'Except Buses' and 'Except Buses and Cycles' things that are short, concise thus clear and easy to understand. Indeed a no right turn sign with a plate reading 'No right turn except buses' makes sense. 'No right turn no vehicles 6am to 10am except buses' does not sound correct. I don't think points would ever come into it, even if the police were around.

I believe the OP has from Pepipoo sent back to the council indicating the non compliance of the sign and asking whether it has special authorisation and I would do this.

Coupon-mad

flyingscotno1 wrote: »

I believe the OP has from Pepipoo sent back to the council indicating the non compliance of the sign and asking whether it has special authorisation and I would do this.

I would do this as well. Why are some posters so keen to side with the Council on this thread?

Anyway, the OP should keep taking pepipoo advice and ask on there for advice again 'when' you get a rejection of your informal appeal (since they usually don't even read it and like to play a game of bluff to get more people to just pay up).

Once you are sent a Notice to Owner then you can put in a formal appeal, if that's rejected too then it goes to the adjudicator unless the Council pull out early. I bet they will fold late in the process, as they won't want a decision about this sign. If you did lose at adjudication you would only have to pay the full PCN fine (no costs) so it's worth appealing in my view.