University degree not worth as much as touted

lostinrates

ninky wrote: »

OMG that is so cruel. it is totally unnatural for the horse to have to perform those moves, not to say painful for it to hold its head in that position. the poor thing can only do it because it's been trained (tortured) that it has to. there is no freedom for these animals. and now it is died after a freak accident - again the result of human actions. wrong wrong wrong.

If you were talking about rollkur, I'd fully agree. But dreessage moves are mainly things you might see a horse do for a reason (not ina prolongue state...but then he wouldn't be conditioned to it). Much competition dressage is very, very wrong, but most is not tortuous, not painful and many horses have much freedom. I ride dressage: but do not compete, and abhor some (most) of the competition environments. A classiclly trained dressage horse (drawing the difference between that and competiton is very necessary) should have a longer working life, with less injury....thats the aim..to build on the natural ability and strengths, enabling, not disabling the horse. Much of the breeding of the modern horse is creating horses that do some of the odder competition movement ''naturally'', in a way classical dressage trainers find ugly and would truely be as you say for a baroque/average horse.

eta: just flicked the you tube on. I remember now their was some dissing of the tail ...usually an indicator of pain or defiance...but I thhink she's just a taliy mare. She has lovely floppy ears, he has nice light contact (I've seen him achieve lovely decent des mains in pictures....the opposite of forse, though there do exist forceful cheats, they are generally evident in other ways) I'm not a fan of the competition stuff but that is a stunning test, and if more competition dressage was so good I'd see what they were aiming for. I have no idea if Helgstrand is a rollkurist or not.

lostinrates

MissMoneypenny wrote: »

The freak accident was that she was in a field for her daily turnout with her buddy Coven and somehow broke her leg. Nothing that humans did to her, just a freak accident. I have never heard of that happening before.

It has, which is why individual turnout is so common now, of course, that makes it more likely to happen when any group turnout is available.

Horses need lots of fibre and their own type....its not much for us to give back to them, and yet so often we don't!

ninky_2

MissMoneypenny wrote: »

The freak accident was that she was in a field for her daily turnout with her buddy Coven and somehow broke her leg. Nothing that humans did to her, just a freak accident. I have never heard of that happening before.

so you don't think the moves that she was constantly forced to perform could have in anyway weakened or injured or affected her natural movement in any way?

this is the sort of thing that dressage leads to.

http://www.dressagedisgrace.com/

it's not an activity that is in anyway beneficial to the animal. i love animals so i'd rather fight for their environment and right to be feral rather than see them kept as slaves to pander to human whims and egos.

Out,_Vile_Jelly

ninky wrote: »

OMG that is so cruel. it is totally unnatural for the horse to have to perform those moves, not to say painful for it to hold its head in that position. the poor thing can only do it because it's been trained (tortured) that it has to. there is no freedom for these animals. and now it is died after a freak accident - again the result of human actions. wrong wrong wrong.

Dressage is supposed to mimic the moves that foals make as they gambol and frolic when young, so all entirely natural positions for horses to be in.

I saw freestyle dressage for the first time last year, including the amazing Totilas. Even the top horses threw in the odd buck, or cantered out of the ring at times- they are not machines and cannot be "tortued" or forced into doing anything.

MissMoneypenny

lostinrates wrote: »

If you were talking about rollkur, I'd fully agree.

I'm not a fan of Rollkur too and is there is some talk of trying to ban it following that report in Science Direct (Vol 116. Issue 2) about avoidance.

lostinrates

Out,_Vile_Jelly wrote: »

I saw freestyle dressage for the first time last year, including the amazing Totilas. Even the top horses threw in the odd buck, or cantered out of the ring at times- they are not machines and cannot be "tortued" or forced into doing anything.

Yes they can, but not all are. Edward Gal does practise low deep round/rollkur. :mad:

Edit: its actually more stallion movement some of it, and some is ...developed from natural. Should NEVER be by force though, you are right, and I'm glad you enjoyed it. Even among competition dressage here is some beauty. Not a fan of Gal myself, in the least, but I can see why people are awed by it. Try some hemfling, or the old Classical schools....drill riding, a bit like synchronised swimming is wonderful...I wish I had lots of chums to ride with...I miss it! EDited to add: ofcourse, its also an old art...its, IMO, ythe ''chess'' and ''yoga'' of riding...lots more brain activity than force. Movements were developed, originally, for use in war, then as an art/sport for elite young men. In war it wuld be important to have a horse able to respond to minimal guidance immediately...if you are fighting people you don't want a fight with your horse, and from minimal pressure, let alone force. Many of the texts classical riders use are very old, Xenaphon is still referred to! And many are controversialwithin the world of dressage, and classical dressage (Baucher...genius or heinous? Modern, equivalent, Phillipe Karl...to flex or not to flex?).

ninky_2

Out,_Vile_Jelly wrote: »

Dressage is supposed to mimic the moves that foals make as they gambol and frolic when young, so all entirely natural positions for horses to be in.

I saw freestyle dressage for the first time last year, including the amazing Totilas. Even the top horses threw in the odd buck, or cantered out of the ring at times- they are not machines and cannot be "tortued" or forced into doing anything.

nonsense. a foal gamboling and frolicing doesn't have a great big oaf sat on its back and a load of tackle all over it or require curb bits or spurs. what people will come up with to justify their cruel hobbies!

lostinrates

MissMoneypenny wrote: »

I'm not a fan of Rollkur too and is there is some talk of trying to ban it following that report in Science Direct (Vol 116. Issue 2) about aviodance.

FEI have announce that rollkur is wrong, this week, no rule change and a big cop out, in that LDR without force and aggression is acceptable. Never seen those prats look aggressive, they look utterly serene in practising the torture.

lostinrates

ninky wrote: »

nonsense. a foal gamboling and frolicing doesn't have a great big oaf sat on its back and a load of tackle all over it or require curb bits or spurs. what people will come up with to justify their cruel hobbies!

Ninky, we could all show examples of things done in names of various things...culture, sport, belief..that we feel are wrong, some of us address them within our own loves.

lostinrates

ninky wrote: »

nonsense. a foal gamboling and frolicing doesn't have a great big oaf sat on its back and a load of tackle all over it or require curb bits or spurs. what people will come up with to justify their cruel hobbies!

I ride in a curb often....to be more delicate...the cruelest tool is the least subtle...people who brag about bitless and snaffles while riding with hands that have no independance or feel are far more likely to do harm/inflict pain discomfort. I also ride with spurs on some horses, when I am hysically able too, short plan shanks. My spurs slip on, no fastening, if they were applied with force they'd come off. They allow me to pin point delicately. Again, no spurs might seem nicer, but I have seen how horses react, or switch off, with repeated forceful thumping in their sides: not something I choose to inflict. If those were my options, I would think me cruel too. I can also ride my special mare totally tack free, frequently ride in just a headcollar....but I have not attained in training the ability to subtley refine movements...i.e. we can acheive all the movements but with less finesse...think ballet dancer barefoot, not en pointe.