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Feed In Tariffs(FIT) Announced.
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The Conservative Party has confirmed that, if elected, it will reverse the current Government’s decision to treat early adopters of on-site microgeneration schemes less favourably than those installing renewable energy technologies for the first time.
Read the full story here:
http://www.greenwisebusiness.co.uk/news/tories-promise-early-adopters-of-microgeneration-better-deal-under-feedintariffs-1161.aspx
I wonder where you stop with this retrospective grant business?
There wasn't paternity leave when we had our children, I wonder if they will make this retrospective - so we can go down the pub together!0 -
I wonder where you stop with this retrospective grant business?
There wasn't paternity leave when we had our children, I wonder if they will make this retrospective - so we can go down the pub together!
This entire website is about Consumer Revenge, and saving money, it says so on every page you view.
Myself, 300+ people on the Downing St website, the Tories, and loads of other people feel this decision was unfair by the current gov.
I've not asked for any retrospective grant, in fact I had not contacted the Tories, or the website I linked. I simply read the story, and linked it here.0 -
If you read the DECC document "Feed in Tariffs, The Government response to the Summer 2009 Consultation," there are a few things to consider before investing in any microgeneration scheme.
First, only brand new equipment fitted by accredited installers qualifies for the new Feed in Tariff. Second hand or refurbished equipment will not be eligible.(Page 19, sections 49 & 50).
Second, the expensive equipment that you will be paying to install at your home effectively cannot be moved once it is installed. The Government say that when you move house it is up to you to negotiate a fair market price for your expensively installed system. (Page 32, Section 115).
So if for instance you have paid £27,000 for a 6kW wind turbine and two years later you have to move for some reason, how much do you think that turbine would be worth?
You can't take it with you to your new home, as it will be classed as second hand and not eligible for the Feed in Tariff.
You can't sell it on the open market for the same reason.
You can sell it to the prospective buyer of your home, but how much will they be willing to pay for it? Not much if they have any sense, as they will be the only one able to buy it, and have got you over a barrel when it comes to price. You have no negotiating power. If the buyer of your house doesn't want it at all, then you will have to pay to get it removed and sold as spares or scrap. Either way, you have lost a lot of money.
If you want to buy a microgeneration system, they are all quite expensive to install, and you could take out a loan of some sort to finance it. The Government say that there are financial organisations who are interested in providing this service.
If there is no second hand market for microgeneration systems due to the Governments own rules, to what is the loan secured? Not the equipment itself, obviously. Your home? The Feed in Tariffs themselves? What happens when you move house before the system has paid for itself? Will the new buyer of your home want the system, or be willing to pay the price you want for it? There are probably companies willing to install equipment for you, and get repaid through the income made from the Feed in Tariff, but will the new buyer of your home want to take over this deal?
Again, if you want to move house, will a mortgage company lend the buyer of your home the value of the house including the microgeneration equipment, which has no second hand value, or just the value of the house itself?
The new Feed in Tariffs look very generous at first, but you could you be left
seriously out of pocket if you have to move before your system has paid for itself.
Oh yes, and don't forget, the Government are very good at changing their mind about things very quickly. What looks good now may change for the worse later. You just have to look at what has happened to microgenerators who installed before July 2009.
Just a few things to think about.0 -
Thinkabitlonger wrote: »
Just a few things to think about.
Welcome to the forum.
Nice post and I certainly agree there are lots of things to think about when considering the economics.
I do get amused when some people talk about 'payback time' or percentage return on their solar 'investment'.
To take an example - with silly figures to illustrate the principle:
If I bought a new car for £20,000 to use as a taxi and made(after expenses) £1000 a year profit. You could I suppose claim this was a return on investment of 5%; or the payback time was 20 years.
However your £20,000 car would be worth zero.
Whereas if you invested £20000 in a bank at 5% and similarly spent the £1000 interest; after 20 years you would still have £20000 in the bank.0 -
Thinkabitlonger wrote: »You can't sell it on the open market for the same reason.
You can sell it to the prospective buyer of your home, but how much will they be willing to pay for it? Not much if they have any sense, as they will be the only one able to buy it, and have got you over a barrel when it comes to price. You have no negotiating power. If the buyer of your house doesn't want it at all, then you will have to pay to get it removed and sold as spares or scrap. Either way, you have lost a lot of money.
Renewable equipment will always be sellable, albeit not always near the price you paid, but it isn't hard shifting equipment. Plenty of offgridders would love a cheap supply of PV, also, ebay buyers abroad.
Back to the houseseller scenario (which I'll be testing out soon when I get enough cash together to move up the ladder!):
House up for sale for £120,000 with say £5,000 FIT-enabled equipment:
Buyer: How much is the house for sale?
Seller: £120,000
Buyer: I don't want the panels, how much is the house without them
Seller: £120,000
Buyer: Yes, but I'm not paying for the solar PV, how much without them
Seller: Its £120,000 with or without them, so £120,000.
You can always take them to your next house where you WILL get the reduced level FIT, but it will be at the lower rate then of 9p a unit
If you buy a house with a conservatory and a prospective buyer doesn't like it, they can't really say, "Oh knock £20k off the price, I don't do conservatories". The house price when valued will include the conservatory price, as it will with a PV house. Normal negotiations will happen of course, but until it actually happens, no one knows.0 -
I agree, when and if I come to sell my house. The PV panels will form part of the price, subject to the normal negotiation over price. If some one doesn't want them the price remains the same (maybe a little less) and I'll take them with me. I can then chose to install on the new house or sell them on.
I actually see them as a bonus to selling. Why would some one not want something that cuts bills? maybe I am naive....0 -
Posted this elsewhere - sorry about the duplication, but am keen for any ideas....
Does anyone know how we should re-jig our gas / elec providers after we have had the panels installed? Can we just switch as previously?
The problem seems to be that electricity is always most expensive for the initial xxx KwH - so the more you use, the cheaper it gets, which doesn't seem so eco-friendly. But solar panels remove the lower tarrif consumption, so you are still paying the top rate for your initial amount used - does any provider have any novel ideas on this?
BTW - we have found the CAT site fantastic for facts and figures and would recommend it highly (Centre for Alternative Technology)
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frugalfran wrote: »Posted this elsewhere - sorry about the duplication, but am keen for any ideas....
Does anyone know how we should re-jig our gas / elec providers after we have had the panels installed? Can we just switch as previously?
The problem seems to be that electricity is always most expensive for the initial xxx KwH - so the more you use, the cheaper it gets, which doesn't seem so eco-friendly. But solar panels remove the lower tarrif consumption, so you are still paying the top rate for your initial amount used - does any provider have any novel ideas on this?
BTW - we have found the CAT site fantastic for facts and figures and would recommend it highly (Centre for Alternative Technology)
The normal tier 1 allocation of high priced units is either 125kWh or 225kWh per quarter.
Given that the panels produce nothing at night, it would be most unusual for someone not to use up(i.e. have to buy) all their quarterly consumption of high priced tier1 units..
Bear in mind that if during the day your panels are producing, say, 2kW and you are using, say, 5kW in the house, you will be paying for the 3kW.0 -
So you know how the other half live; French government are bribing people to install solar PV; mad really as we have lots of nuclear, but anyway
Domestic installation must be <=3kW.
Say 2KW for a medium size house.
Install Cost say 18000€. Government rebates a bit under half, so in this example net cost 10000€
In the South of France in a good location you might get 1300 "PV hours" in a year, so the 2KW installation produces say 2600KWH.
Here's the bribe - the elctric company must buy all you produce for twenty years, at a price of 0.58€ per unit (inflation proofed). Thats 1500€ a year.
So the investment is paid off in <7 years. That's a return of something like 14%plus inflation tracker say 17%. Wonderful!0 -
The new Feed In Tariffs may give householders a good return on units sold back to the grid - but it's not so good (because of inbuilt financial inefficiency) for the taxpayer/country/climate change.
There's a good review of the issues by George Monbiot in today's Guardian here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/mar/01/solar-panel-feed-in-tariff. It's also on his blogsite here: http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2010/03/01/a-great-green-rip-off/. Some very interesting questions raised...
MSE is a money-saving site, so the FIT system looks very good for us MSErs - but if George Monbiot's article is even half right (and I suspect he does know what he's talking about!) then it looks fairly bad in environmental overall terms. It will lead to a lot more micro-generation but vastly more carbon could be saved with the same money spent on other schemes.
Mind you it aint going to go away because of that - only just introduced, supported by all parties and due to last 25 years apparently - so make of it what you can...
This thread may be part of a money-saving site - but it's in the 'green & ethical' category of that site - so we should be taking these issues into account here.0
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