Damp, damp and more damp - girl in dire need of advice please

savingmummy

GemGem1987 wrote: »

Hiya, I tried this and they send us a leaflet, which was really really crap lol

Your little lad has asthma they have to help you. It is their property.
You shouldn`t be living like this with a little one.
Contact housing maitenence dept at the council and get someone out.
I know of a lady who has a council flat and they helped with her mould problem following a water leak she had x

David_Aldred

Hello Gemgem,
Could you please answer a couple of points in order to assist?
How old is the property?
Do you own the property or is it rented?
Do you now if the outside walls are solid or cavity wall and if they are cavity wall do you know if they are cavity wall insulated?
What type of heating do you have and does it come on and off with a simple clock at say first thing in morning and when you are out?
Are there extractor fans to kitchen and bathroom areas and if so how do they operate?
Are there controllable wall / window vents to all rooms?
Are there doors on the kitchen / bathroom areas ?
What is your lifestyle - how many bedrooms are there and how many people live there?
Are you out all day most of the time or is there somebody in most of the day ?
Was the flat free of mould prior to you moving in ? If so had it just been redecorated to give an appearance of being free of problems?
Are your neighbours troubled with a similar problem ?
Is there double glazing and do you get condensation on these windows?
Is your bathroom a true bath with a seperate shower cubicle or just a shower or a shower over a bath ?
Are the other flats occupied?
Is the building as a whole in good or delapidated condition ?
How many walls are external to your flat and in which rooms ?
Besides your son are there anyone else with breathing difficulties living in the flat and how is the health of the occupants generally?
Sorry for so many questions but as you can see the more information the more help.

Kindest regards, David Aldred Independent damp and timber surveyor

Mankysteve

Go speak to your housing officer in person him/her to make a visit., If they don't help call environmental health out.

marshallka

Mankysteve wrote: »

Go speak to your housing officer in person him/her to make a visit., If they don't help call environmental health out.

I wish i could:eek:.

roger196

Try your local councillor's surgery if you are getting no joy from the council's officials. Get phone number from local council. Write letters as phone calls can be forgotten.
Look round the outside of the property. Are guters blocked, drainpipes leaking, roof tiles loose, overflows flowing, is brickwork wet in a particular place.
The water has to come from somewhere. Do you open the kitchen window whilst cooking esp boiling. Do you water plants. Are there any leaks in the bathroom, kitchen, from washing machine ( inlet or outlet hoses). Could the leaks be coming from upstairs eg overflowing bath or detached outlet pipe or faulty shower base?

marshallka

David_Aldred wrote: »

Hello Gemgem,
Could you please answer a couple of points in order to assist?
How old is the property?
Do you own the property or is it rented?
Do you now if the outside walls are solid or cavity wall and if they are cavity wall do you know if they are cavity wall insulated?
What type of heating do you have and does it come on and off with a simple clock at say first thing in morning and when you are out?
Are there extractor fans to kitchen and bathroom areas and if so how do they operate?
Are there controllable wall / window vents to all rooms?
Are there doors on the kitchen / bathroom areas ?
What is your lifestyle - how many bedrooms are there and how many people live there?
Are you out all day most of the time or is there somebody in most of the day ?
Was the flat free of mould prior to you moving in ? If so had it just been redecorated to give an appearance of being free of problems?
Are your neighbours troubled with a similar problem ?
Is there double glazing and do you get condensation on these windows?
Is your bathroom a true bath with a seperate shower cubicle or just a shower or a shower over a bath ?
Are the other flats occupied?
Is the building as a whole in good or delapidated condition ?
How many walls are external to your flat and in which rooms ?
Besides your son are there anyone else with breathing difficulties living in the flat and how is the health of the occupants generally?
Sorry for so many questions but as you can see the more information the more help.

Kindest regards, David Aldred Independent damp and timber surveyor

Hi David Aldred, can i answer the same on our house and you come up with an answer. We have had someone out (a damp firm last week) and we are having a drimaster 2000 fitted which he says "should" solve our long time problems. We first had someone out years ago and they tested etc and then painted the outside walls with something and gave us a 15 years guarantee and then disappeared from the face of the earth after charging us a fortune. We have had a dehumidifier running for years 24/7 and we take extra precautions when cooking, showering, bathing etc. Our dehumidifier fills daily. In answer to your questions to Gemgem mine are below.
Our property was built 1963 (semi bungalow)
We own the property
Our walls are solid brick with polysterene cavity wall infill done years ago.
We have gas central heating which is on a timer and on for a decent amount of time simply cause the house was cold.
We have an extrator in the bathroom which we have to pull on each time we shower, bath etc and we leave on after for a while. Our kitchen has the window open when we cook, boil kettles etc.
We have not got vents in the rooms except for the living room because we used to have a gas fire but changed to an electric one as the water was coming down our chimney and rotted our gas one. Have had to have the wall replastered last year and put in a new fireplace. The wall was terrible with damp musty smell. That has been fixed with a cowl on the chimney.
We leave doors open most of the day and we have 3 bedrooms. There are 4 of us and 2 dogs.
Someone is in most of the time.
I rented the property before we purchased it and we always had problems but the vendor did try to cover it up as neighbours told us that they always had a dehumidifier in the hallway.
Some neighbours have similar problems. Our properties "could" have red ash infill to the foundations. We maybe had a red ash test (cannot remember really and the house has once - before we moved in - suffered subsidence).
We get lots of condensation on the windows mostly at the rear of the property. We also have black mould around the tops of the ceilings etc.
Our bath is a true bath with an overhead shower used from the bath taps.
The building is in general good state of repair - renedered at the front and just had the eaves and soffits ripped off and new ones with vents.
I am the queen of Otrivine for sleeping at nights and also my hubby has chest probs. We have fitted wardrobes in our bedroom and all my clothes are damp and smelly and this year they are actually wring outable too.....:eek:. Have to renew anything leather that is in there often. In fact have to leave things up the loft now.

What is your conclusions to this problem? We do have a white line (salt coming up from the ground on the side of our house and also we have a green mould at low level near where my wardrobe is on the outside wall. The render at damp course level is slightly perished so my hubby is going to have to get the materials and redo this when we can afford as we have spent our money on others things thinking it could solve the problems (each person that came out said it was this and that) and nothing has.

Sorry Gemgem for hijacking your thread but just in a similar situation and wanted feedback.

David_Aldred

Hi Marshallka,
Sorry have just picked up your message - given yours is a bungalow the questions are similar but it woudl be helpful to know if you had the cavity wall insulation installed and if so how was the proeprty mould wise prior to installation and also are the groudn floors suspended timber or solid or a mixture of both ?

The roof over the chimney breast area to the lounge is that a hip roof such that the roof tiles / slates start directly above the ceiling or is it a gable roof at this point with a good deal of brickwork above ceiling level on the outside wall and then the roof ridge on top ?

Kindest regards,

David

marshallka

David_Aldred wrote: »

Hi Marshallka,
Sorry have just picked up your message - given yours is a bungalow the questions are similar but it woudl be helpful to know if you had the cavity wall insulation installed and if so how was the proeprty mould wise prior to installation and also are the groudn floors suspended timber or solid or a mixture of both ?

The roof over the chimney breast area to the lounge is that a hip roof such that the roof tiles / slates start directly above the ceiling or is it a gable roof at this point with a good deal of brickwork above ceiling level on the outside wall and then the roof ridge on top ?

Kindest regards,

David

Hi David, our cavity wall was already in since we purchased it and is of the polysterene type balls. The chimney breast is actually an internal wall but rain was getting in via the chimney and we have put a stainless steel cowl on. That problem is hopefully solved. The floors are bitumen on top of solid floors.

Thanks for replying.;)

David_Aldred

Hi Marshallka,
Thanks for the info and though unseen we will try and make a few conclusions from the information you have provided to date:

The property was built in 1963 and will have a damp proof course that will not have disapeared. In any case moisture from the ground (rising dampness) tends to be contaminated with ground salts that will usually inhibit mould growth rather than encourage it. The property will have been reasonably dry when first built so somethings have changed to give this history of dampness / mould growth.

Bungalows are inherently more prone critical to condensation issues than houses as everything in a bungalow is on one level. The cavity walls have been insulated after the house was built and this will have been done blindly so we do not know whether all areas have been filled and / or whether the material has slumped over time which in both cases results in voids prone to condensation not only on wall surfaces but within the depth of the wall itself. There is evidence to correlate that installing cavity wall insulation to houses after they have been built results in some cases in increased dampness problems due to the shift in the moisture dynamics of the wall and any marginal issues that were present with that wall that then become critical as a result.

The outside walls have been coated to reduce penetrating dampness but this could also retard evaporation outwards. If moisture that occurs within the wall be that any penetrating dampness / condensation cannot readily evaporate or drain / vent outwards then it may well migrate inwards through the more permeable inner walls / plaster. When walls contain water in their pores instead of air they are colder and if they are colder they are more prone to condensation such that a downward spiral of dampness may occur.

If the walls are insulated then it is likely that increased insulation has been fitted to the loft. Above this insulation it will be colder and more prone to condensation unless increased ventilation has been allowed for at the same time. The description of mould at wall / ceiling junctions suggests but does not confirm a cold spot at this point where perahps insulation does not fully extend to such difficult to reach areas ensuring at least 50mm air gap is maintained between insulation and roof covering.

The fireplace to at least one room is no longer in use as intended (open coal fire). This reduces background ventilation by around 2-5 air changes per hour which has not been compensated for. Moisture was coming down the redundant flu and this has now been addressed by cowlings and patch re-plastering. Note that the re-plastering needs to be able to cope with dampness during the drying down phase of the wet chimney breast which may take many months to do so in addition the plaster needs to be resistant to contaminates such as sulphates from soot migrating into it.

Background ventilation is poor and though the client states that they open a window to the kitchen it may well be inadeqaute if there is no cross ventilation - in other words sufficient draught to remove moisture laden air at source.

There is no extractor fan to kitchen but a manually operated one to the bathroom. Because the fan is manual it is up to the client when and for how long that fan is activated and in any case its size is likely to be barely adequate.

The heating regime by simple clock results in no heating for significant periods where the house is allowed to go cold during the night etc.

The health of the occupants is flagged as being typical of a property where significant mould is present such as asthma / headaches / nausea.

The client comments that there is condensation on windows and if transient during this cold weather it may be tolerated but the description is one of a chronic condensation / mould problem. Since mould spores are in the air all the time they will flourish with a relatively pure moisture such as condensation / penetrating dampness / leakage combined with appropriate surface.

The client has a domestic dehumidifier and this is stated to fill daily and clothes stored in drawers /wardrobes are damp / mouldy so hence air moisture levels are concluded to be unacceptably high.

The floors are solid so this rules out moisture evaporating from a damp / poorly vented oversite beneath suspended timber floors. Solid floors are prone to moving seperately from the walls and the resultant gap at the floor / wall junction may result in low level dampness emerging at this point but this should not be confused with the chronic condensation / mould issues that are of primary concern.

From the above we can conclude that property has been altered significantly from how it was originally designed to function albeit with the best of intentions and these alterations may well have increased the moisture resevoir within the walls.

There is therefore a combination of structural and occupancy related issues that has resulted in an accumulation of dampness with subsequent mould and addressing all of the issues will be required if the property is to be dried down to a level that is perceived to be dry.

The way that people behave within their properties has a far greater influence upon dampness levels than minor dampness issues emerging from walls but both are crucial to address if the situation is to be brought under control.

Matters to be considered:
Controllable background ventilation to each and every room is a mandatory requirement. More so since the fireplace is now sealed. This ventilation can be through window frames or walls and if through walls needs to be ducted through the entire depth of the wall not just into the wall cavity otherwise you will allow warm moist air to enter the cavity and condense out.

Manually operated extractor fan to bathroom only is inadequate. Not only should there be one to the kitchen but they need to be automatic such that they do not rely upon yourself to activate. The type recommended is humidistat controlled which have sensor within them that activates the fan as it hunts for a set level of excessive humidity. Typically rated at 150mm diameter 60 litres / second air exchange set to commence at say 65%RH and importantly that they overrun once activated for at least 15 minutes.

A domestic sized dehumidifier is usually only adequate for the room it is in. As an initial hit to dry the fabric of the building down it may be worth hiring an industrial sized unit for a week or so considering the building is currently a saturated environement. This is not a cure but will shorten the drying down time if other moisture sources are resolved.

The thermostat for the heating is recommended to be changed from simple clock to one that hunts for set temperatures depending upon lifestyle. For example sleeping / nobody in min 15 degC, standing / doing things 17 deg C and sat 19-21 deg C. The idea being that the boiler trips in and out / hunts to meet a min temp of say at least 15 deg C and hence the property does not go cold for periods because remember condensation is temperature related and people will say they don't see condensdation occurring but it is when they are out / at night and the property is allowed to go cold with simple on / off clock triggering of the boiler. Hence the preferred type of programmable thermostat to make the boiler constantly hunt / trip in and out to meet min temp settings.

The drimaster system is good especially with a heater so it does not blow cold air into the house. Whilst helpful on there own without other support measures they are unlikely to be a complete fix in this case as suggested by the salesman. They are dear for what is basically a glorified fan that takes air from th eroofspace and blows it into your house pushing damp air out through nooks and crannies.

Investigate missing areas of roof insulation where mould is occurring at ceiling level and if chronic condensation up there increase ventilation to roof space to remove such moisture laden air. Ther should be a vent at the eaves equal to at least 10mm diameter continuous over its length with insect mesh protection. If you cannot vent the soffit board then under tiule / slate vents can be used.

Investigate for whether the cavity within the walls is wet and whether there are voids to the cavity insulation that correlate with any acute mould spots to walls. This may be beyond your expertise as ideally you would do this with a thermal camera / photographic endoscope but a builder or yourself may be able to open a sample brick.

The best time to inspect is unfortunately when it is coldest and during prolonged wind driven rain. Even a masonry drilling of the wall from the inside may assist because if the drilled material comes out like mud it is wet and if it is steaming it is damp and if it is just dobvious dust than will blow off your hand without leaving a stain then it is relatively dry and the issue is more internal rather than from within the wall itself. Be careful when drilling walls to avoid services buried within them. However in any case I would still check for missing insulation within the wall and whether there is a means by any moisture can vent from that wall externally.

Vent joints often called weep joints can be seen to the base of new buildings and over their door / windowe openings as plastic sleeves every three or four bricks along and these allow moisture that occurs within the cavity of the wall to vent outwards which is important with solid floors because if moisture trickles down the cavity of the walls which way is it going to go when it reaches a door / window lintel or the base of the wall?

Try not to have a cluttered property and by that I mean so much stuff in rooms it is from floor to ceiling with built in wardrobes against outside walls and curtains all the way down to the floor. This will retard air flow and if the air is not moving the humidity will go up.

Try not to have beds / fitted wardrobes against outside walls but where fitted wardrobes have to be placed there ensure there is airflow by venting the cupboard doors top and bottom.

Cook and bathe with doors closed such that the fans / ventilation described above can remove this moisture laden air before it migrates to colder areas and condenses out. When you finish bathing and come out keep that bathroom door shut and if you cannot remember to do this fit a self closer on the doors.

Avoid non breathable wallpapers such as vinyls. Use anti mould paints in kitchen and bathrooms, they will in no way cure a condensation / mould problem but they have biocides within them that help inhibit mould growth.

Clean mould down with anti fungal products as soon as you see it. Damp itself will do you far less harm than the products of mould growth which in effect give off a kind of poison that will compromise your health especially those with breathing difficulties.

Not a primary issue in this case but as a matter of generally wanting to note all moisture sources check cavities are free of debris particularly at their base as this woudl allow moisture to rise up through it whether or not the dpc in the walls is effective. Also check that the dpc does not protrude significantly into the cavity of the wall where it may act as a ledge directing any moisture trickiling down the cavity inwards.

Check for gaps at floor / wall junction beneath skirting and address simply as a support measure only to ensure any dampness emerging at this point does not effect timber / plaster / decoration directly above by sealing with flexible impervious material.

Not an exhaustive list because I have not inspected the particular problem but hope this helps to some degree. Kindest regards David Aldred Independent damp, cavity wall tie / insulation / basement and timber surveyor.

Plasterer

Hi Gem Gem, When you say your flats building is "very old brick" is it pre 1900's? If so have a look outside at the poiting between the bricks on the whole building. Is there any evidence of whitish pointing anywhere? If so, have a look at where your problem initially sarted outside , is the poiting a darker maybe grey colour? if so it may be that in the buildings life at some point it has been repointed with cement rather than the traditional lime. If water gets in behind cement it cannot evaporate and therefore has to go somewhere. Lime "breathes" and will let water come and go. If this is the case DONT PANIC, answer this message and I will talk you through a step by step (easy and inexpensive) way to correct this (or if not yourself maybe a freind). Hope this helps
Regards.