Anyone used Rointe heaters?

LittleVermin

dickllewellyn wrote: »

Cardew.

You are still wrong.<snip> How can you be so confused over such a simple matter? Once you have built a test rig and accurately proved your ridiculous hypothesis, I will bow before your mighty greatness. Until you've done that, stop trying to disprove simple physics, and stop being such an idiot.

Cardew wrote: »

It is rather sad that you have to resort to such posts in order to sell your heaters?

grahamc2003 also commented on dickllewellyn's post:

grahamc2003 wrote: »

OMG.

If anyone reading this thinks the above makes any sense whatsoever, then just ask someone with gcse physics and they will put you right.<snip>

No-one comes on MSE for a basic science lesson, but ...it might be useful for some to check out the National Curriculum for Science at:

http://curriculum.qcda.gov.uk/key-stages-3-and-4/subjects/key-stage-3/science/programme-of-study/index.aspx?tab=2

This is for Key Stage 3 - i.e secondary school.

Quote:

3.1 Energy, electricity and forces

1. energy can be transferred usefully, stored, or dissipated, but cannot be created or destroyed

If you check out further you'll find that Conservation of Energy is taught in Year 7 - that's the first year of secondary school. So a (good!) 11-12 year old should be able to see the flaws in dickllewellyn's post - and in the wonderful stuff on the websites of Rointe and Elti .. and the others. (Elti has a real enthusiast called Hans!).

So, grahamc2003, I think your advice to ask someone with GCSE Physics is a bit over the top! - just ask a smart year 7! Sadly too few go on to do Physics GCSE - and even fewer Physics A level (though it's rising) - and even fewer a degree in Physics.

So Rointe and Elti, etc - and all their supporters / agents / salesmen / installers /.. in this thread - can produce very convincing pseudo-science aka gobbledegook about their 'economical' heaters ..and people believe them!

What's that saying? "Education is expensive, but lack of education even more so" ...and in the case of these magical 'economical heaters' what you save by NOT buying them you can use in buying energy. If people missed out on Conservation of Energy at school I'm sure there are lots of good free resources on-line.

PS Once again here's the link to the Advertising Standards Authority adjudication on a Rointe magazine ad and brochure: http://www.asa.org.uk/ASA-action/Adjudications/2011/1/Rointe/TF_ADJ_49624.aspx from January this year. Since March 1st, the ASA can adjudicate on marketing material on the web. I hope someone will complain (on-line) about the websites of Rointe and Elti .. and the others. Maybe someone who got their result for GCSE Physics today? Go on!

PPS What I find quite amazing is that this post is number 92 in this thread! You'd think about 5 would have exhausted the topic! But as (I think) Cardew has pointed out the more posts there are the easier it is for people googling to find this thread. Own goal!

dickllewellyn

Cardew wrote: »

It is rather sad that you have to resort to such posts in order to sell your heaters?

I'm not selling anything. I don't believe the Rointe hype either, but I do want to point out how different elements (air, oil) have different specific heat capacities and will retain heat differently. I also wanted to retort in the same manner as some other posters have been treated infering stupidity.

daveyjp

"once the element is turned off the oil retains and continues to give out heat"

Where did this heat come from?

Could it be for quite a period after turning the the oil radiator on it remained cold whilst the oil warmed through? A convector heater gives out heat as soon as the switch is flicked.

If you want both heaters to give out similar heat at the same time you need to turn the oil radiator on sooner thus using energy to heat the oil

Cardew

dickllewellyn wrote: »

I'm not selling anything. I don't believe the Rointe hype either, but I do want to point out how different elements (air, oil) have different specific heat capacities and will retain heat differently. I also wanted to retort in the same manner as some other posters have been treated infering stupidity.

Well for someone who apparently owns an electrical contracting company, you demonstrate an extraordinary lack of knowledge of electrical heating.

The amount of Heat produced by a heater can be measured in Btu, Calories or Joules.

Now the amount of heat – measured by any of those units - produced by any electrical heater that has used 1kWh is exactly the same, regardless of it being Granny’s old 1 bar(1kW) fire, a 3kW fan heater, a 3kW oil filled radiator or a Rointe heater.

You seem hung up on the incorrect assumption that an oil filled radiator, which has residual heat, must somehow produce more heat for a given input – IT DOESN’T. The amount of heat it produces after electricity is turned off, in comparison to an ‘instant’ fan heater, is exactly balanced by the lower heat output while the oil is being heated.

If the room requires, say, 1kWh to maintain a constant temperature, then that would entail Granny’s 1 bar fire to be on constantly. A 3kW fan heater or 3kW oil filled radiator would need to be on for a total of 20 minutes each hour. All will cost exactly the same to run.

So this statement of yours that an oil filled radiator will cost less is completely wrong!!

Heat a room with an oil filled radiator with a 3 KW element for an hour, and once the element is turned off the oil retains and continues to give out heat so the room cools slower. If this oil temperature is maintained, the element will be on for less time and hence cost less.

dickllewellyn

Lets look at a 1KW storage heater and a 1KW convector heater. Turn them both on over night, and the convector heater will make the room toasty warm. Once both heaters are turned off, the room with the convector heater will rapidly cool, whilst the storage heater will retain the warmth and kick it out into the room for the rest of the day. Surely the idea of an oil filled radiator over a convector heater is that it uses this heat storage approach to provide a consistant temperature? I'm not saying there will be more heat for a given input, just that it will stick around longer. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I need to see evidence to convince me either one way or the other, and untill I do I will continue to debate untill I understand. If I had the money and resources I'd set my own experiment to try and find a definitive answer.

As for the comment on owning an electrical company, I fail to see why that should mean I know a lot about electric heating. In our neck of the woods most houses are on mains gas, so there isn't much call for it. The only electric heating we ever install is the odd convector heater in little used spaces, storage heaters tend to be on a replacement basis, and low power tube heaters for frost protection. Ask someone who sells cars for a living what van you should buy, and it's probably a similar connection. I have almost no interest in heating or heating technology. I get my kicks out of finding ways to conceal cabling to antique chandeliers in period homes, lighting up gardens and interiors beautifully, or figuring out complicated control circuits.

Cardew

You don't seem able to grasp the fact that the 1kW convector heater will produce 'instant' full heat and of course no residual heat when power is switched off.

The 1kW oil filled radiator will take some time to produce its full heat output, but have some residual heat when power is switched off.

However if they both consume XkWh, they both will have delivered exactly the same amount of heat; and importantly cost the same.

Of course we choose a heater that best meets our needs, which essentially is a choice between fast heating and no residual heat, or a gentle build up of heat with some residual heat.

If you 'need evidence to convince you' then read the laws of physics or do some research on the web. All electrical heaters are 100% efficient so how can one heater be more efficient than another?

This thread is about ROINTE and similar heating systems, that cost the earth, and imply that their heaters somehow produce more heat than other electrical heaters - and they don't.

Interventions like yours simply spread mis-information, especially as you included in your intial post that you own an electrical company - which was clearly included to imply you have some expertise in this subject - which you equally clearly do not have.

dickllewellyn

The mention of the electrical company in the first post was meant more to show that I have no vested interest in Rointe, but have become aware of them through the industry.

Perhaps you are right and I should have paid more attention at school. For some of us an apprenticeship with screwdrivers and drills is more appropriate than books and acedemia, and it certainly showed me there was more to life than what I was up to after school! It's always nice as a newcomer to a forum trying to discuss a product or technology and present ones own understanding (right or wrong) to be spoken to like a child who is either A) clueless, or connected with the product. My recent outburst was a frustrated response to this feeling which I'd hoped would show how one can feel from being belittled in a public forum based on anothers asumptions or misinterpretation of ones writing.

I do however still struggle to grasp this concept, and will undoubtedly have to investigate further. I fear that we are banging heads against walls at this stage, some think I'm wrong, I think others are wrong, I'd love it if we were all wrong!

p3pp3r5

FYI

Friends new to living 'off grid' have been purchasing these Rointe heaters room by room. Don't know the cost other than they are pricey to buy. Despite them saying they are expensive to run they are buying more of them!? Think they were under the assumption they'd be as cheap to run as gas CH!

:doh:

muquinhas

Is there anyone who purchased the Rointe heaters or any other expensive one who can say: last year with panel heater I spent X amount and since I bought the expensive heaters, for the same period I have now use X amount. We will then know if it is worth it and stop all these virtual fights...

Thanks,
Sam

chris1973

Interesting that when under investigation by the ASA earlier this year for complaints in relation to misleading advertising, they still did not send any proof of the claims that they were making to the ASA.

http://www.asa.org.uk/ASA-action/Adjudications/2011/1/Rointe/TF_ADJ_49624.aspx

Rointe said the ads' content was supported by accredited tests, reports and technical certificates carried out by both national and international technological centres independently of Rointe. They did not send the tests, reports or certificates.


1. Rointe said the 60% energy saving claim was the result of a comparative test lasting 24 hours on another electric radiator. They did not send the details or results of the test.

The ASA considered that readers would expect the claim "60% ENERGY SAVING" for the digital electric radiator to be based on the results of tests. Rointe had sent no tests or any other documentary evidence to substantiate the claim.

We concluded that the claim "60% ENERGY SAVING" for the digital electric radiator was unsubstantiated and misleading.

I'm not going to comment on whether their heaters work as described or not, I just found the link above in the public domain from a Google search, and after reading it, I find it strange that any company who had allegedly gone to the great expense of getting their products independantly assessed and tested, would not send copies of those assessment documents and test results in order to both prove beyond doubt that their claims were all correct and also at the same time defend the claims against their misleading advertising, and so clear themselves of any alleged wrongdoing with the ASA.