Anyone used Rointe heaters?

jamiecol

Hi , ive just sat here and read this lengthy thread , Im a carpenter so no expert in electrics but get most of whats been said and points people have made but still a little confussed as to what i should do.

I have an electic rad system in my house much like any normal gas or oil system but runs off a 12kw electric boiler which heats the water , This only does my heating and not my hot water but is mega expensive to run [£280 a month and about to go up] Ive tryed running it all the time but keeping the stat low and just having it on for short time in morning and an hour before i get home from work but doesnt seem to make any difference , Also because my house has no cavity walls and no insulation stuggles to keep the heat in and when its really cold like it has been doesnt warm the house that well.

So my question is would i be better off with these rointe or simular type heaters ie would they be a cheaper option than the system i already have ?

Also i get the point few people make about fan heaters oil filled heater ect that for every kw they use thay cost the same weather it be a 10 quid heater of an exspensive one , But say you get two differnt 2 kw heaters but the heat output is better on one than the other would that not make it cheaper and more efficient than the other giving out more heat for the same amount of electric being used ?? Like i said no expert in this just a question .

cheers

Cardew

jamiecol wrote: »

But say you get two differnt 2 kw heaters but the heat output is better on one than the other would that not make it cheaper and more efficient than the other giving out more heat for the same amount of electric being used ?? Like i said no expert in this just a question .

cheers

Any electrical heater gives out EXACTLY the same amount of heat, for the same amount of electricity used. They are all 100% efficient.

They can deliver it in different ways, 'instant heat' with no residual heat, or slow to heat up(an oil filled radiator for example) but with residual heat.

HappyMJ

jamiecol wrote: »

Hi , ive just sat here and read this lengthy thread , Im a carpenter so no expert in electrics but get most of whats been said and points people have made but still a little confussed as to what i should do.

I have an electic rad system in my house much like any normal gas or oil system but runs off a 12kw electric boiler which heats the water , This only does my heating and not my hot water but is mega expensive to run [£280 a month and about to go up] Ive tryed running it all the time but keeping the stat low and just having it on for short time in morning and an hour before i get home from work but doesnt seem to make any difference , Also because my house has no cavity walls and no insulation stuggles to keep the heat in and when its really cold like it has been doesnt warm the house that well.

So my question is would i be better off with these rointe or simular type heaters ie would they be a cheaper option than the system i already have ?

Also i get the point few people make about fan heaters oil filled heater ect that for every kw they use thay cost the same weather it be a 10 quid heater of an exspensive one , But say you get two differnt 2 kw heaters but the heat output is better on one than the other would that not make it cheaper and more efficient than the other giving out more heat for the same amount of electric being used ?? Like i said no expert in this just a question .

cheers

No better off.....no cheaper.

You are right in that a 2kW fan heater will heat a smaller area of your home and therefore be lower on the running costs...but your other rooms will be cold. You could just turn the radiators off in all unused rooms and just run one radiator and you should get the same outcome. Your 12kW electric boiler will run less and still only use about 2kW heating the one room...the same as the fan heater....plus a little for the pump which will emit it's heat in a location where you probably don't want heat.

The different ways of emitting heat can make a little difference to cost. A oil filled radiator is slow to emit heat and will continue to emit heat once you leave so may cost a little more as you need to turn it on half an hour before you need the heat to get the best benefit of it. Although turning it off a half hour before you leave will end up costing the same as a fan heater which gives instant heat and stops once you turn it off.

Richie-from-the-Boro

jamiecol wrote: »

Hi , ive just sat here and read this lengthy thread , Im a carpenter so no expert in electrics but get most of whats been said and points people have made but still a little confussed as to what i should do.

I have an electic rad system in my house much like any normal gas or oil system but runs off a 12kw electric boiler which heats the water , This only does my heating and not my hot water but is mega expensive to run [£280 a month and about to go up] Ive tryed running it all the time but keeping the stat low and just having it on for short time in morning and an hour before i get home from work but doesnt seem to make any difference , Also because my house has no cavity walls and no insulation stuggles to keep the heat in and when its really cold like it has been doesnt warm the house that well.

So my question is would i be better off with these rointe or simular type heaters ie would they be a cheaper option than the system i already have ?

Also i get the point few people make about fan heaters oil filled heater ect that for every kw they use thay cost the same weather it be a 10 quid heater of an expensive one , But say you get two different 2 kw heaters but the heat output is better on one than the other would that not make it cheaper and more efficient than the other giving out more heat for the same amount of electric being used ?? Like i said no expert in this just a question .

cheers

the heat output is better on one than the other would that not make it cheaper and more efficient than the other giving out more heat for the same amount of electric being used

Electricity is converted into heat [the heating element is resistive], nothing gives out more heat for the same amount of electric. You could have 2,000 lights bulbs / 2 convection heaters / one oven / or 100 irons they're all the same 1kW in = 1kW out.

The thing you should maybe attend to is your wet electric system is a very expensive option, usually only for very well insulated dwellings and usually for an E7 or E10 tariff. On Rointe et al if I offered you 5 cubic meters of Bird’s eye maple and told you you would get 8 cubic meters out of it when cut - would you believe me ?

Hollyhocks

I am not an electrician and have a vague grasp of physics, but I can read an electricity bill! I had a Rointe radiator fitted in my new kitchen last autumn and my electricity bill has quadrupled! I think they are a complete con and are no more efficient than any other electric radiator. I'm switching to E10 and getting a storage heater - I'm retired and in all day so need daytime heat. But does anyone know anything about 'Quantum Electric Heating' by Dimplex? All the usual claims, but are they just a lot of hot air (ha!) and expensive hot air at that?

Dunroamin

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

Electricity is converted into heat [the heating element is resistive], nothing gives out more heat for the same amount of electric. You could have 2,000 lights bulbs / 2 convection heaters / one oven / or 100 irons they're all the same 1kW in = 1kW out.

That isn't true of heat pumps/reversible air conditioning units.

Cardew

Hollyhocks wrote: »

I am not an electrician and have a vague grasp of physics, but I can read an electricity bill! I had a Rointe radiator fitted in my new kitchen last autumn and my electricity bill has quadrupled! I think they are a complete con and are no more efficient than any other electric radiator. I'm switching to E10 and getting a storage heater - I'm retired and in all day so need daytime heat. But does anyone know anything about 'Quantum Electric Heating' by Dimplex? All the usual claims, but are they just a lot of hot air (ha!) and expensive hot air at that?

Welcome to the forum:

To save getting threads mixed up I have started a new thread about Quantum electric heating.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=59915837#post59915837

Cardew

Dunroamin wrote: »

That isn't true of heat pumps/reversible air conditioning units.

He did refer to the 'heating element is resistive'.

Strictly speaking a heat pump is not a heater, it is a device for transfering heat from the air/ground outside(which is cooled a little;)) to inside the house.

Richie-from-the-Boro

richie-from-the-boro wrote: »

"how do they compare to rointe?"

- very similar, but cheaper per panel unit
- up front price lists since the advertising standards authority took them to task
- usual but not expected german variation [also marketed as also marketed as wibo and suka] on snake~oil
- unusual, but refreshingly welcome declaration
- still using the snake~oil claim that you can replace cheap stored heat with expensive non-stored heat
- electrorad, wibo and suka have all had complaints against them upheld by the advertising standards authority
- a bit more snake~oil trickery here conveniently confusing 'comfort' with 'cost

a £20 panel heater from amazon or a sexy rointe at £1500, the running costs are the same. The u-value of a room will arbitrate the heat loss and so it .. .. The insulation levels, glazing, etc will decide running costs. No amount of fancy pseudo science or manufacturing materials will have any influence whatsoever on running costs.

They don't mention the test conditions for their cost per hour, was the door opened ? Was cold air from outside let in? Was there wind against the walls taking heat away? What about ventilation? Etc.

Note: Anyone on e7 or e10 which are the salesman's target audience should be aware that there are hidden costs associated with the purchase of this latest reincarnation of wibo and suka snake~oil.

"how do they compare to rointe?" = very similar, but cheaper per panel when compared to rointe and up front product price lists :

I can buy seventy five [ish] amazon panel heaters for the price of one rointe heater. Pricing quote used by me was from posters here who broke the rointe secrecy by publishing their purchase costs here on this forum.

- - - - bump ! Last edited by Richie-from-the-Boro; Today at 4:55 PM. Reason: Edit required by the MSE [Investigation] Team on behalf of Rointe

Could those reading this with Rointe heating installed describe to us :

- the size [rooms will do] of your dwelling
- the electricity tariff they use in your case
- wired to existing 13a or on a separate newly installed ring main
- total costs of the installation not the product
- total costs of the product not the installation
- total costs of de-installing / removing your previous heating system
- the controller they use and its effectiveness
- total of kW installed per household
- which country you live in particularly France or Germany
- any individual who has complained to the courts or the press or advertising on Rointe claims
- such as this one ?
- or here
- and again here

Issue

1. Two complainants, one of whom was an electrician, thought the claim "60% ENERGY SAVING" for the digital electric radiator in ad (a) was misleading and could not be substantiated.

A third complainant thought:

2. the claims in ad (b) that the Rointe System produced zero pollution and zero carbon dioxide emissions were misleading and exaggerated and could not be substantiated; and

3. the references in ad (b) to explosions when using combustion for boilers or water heaters, the risk of carbon dioxide and combustion to human life and health, and the sometimes fatal consequences of having gas or liquid fuels at home were exaggerated, misleading and likely to cause undue fear by implying that alternatives to the Rointe System were less safe.

Response

Rointe said the ads' content was supported by accredited tests, reports and technical certificates carried out by both national and international technological centres independently of Rointe. They did not send the tests, reports or certificates.

1. Rointe said the 60% energy saving claim was the result of a comparative test lasting 24 hours on another electric radiator. They did not send the details or results of the test.

2. Rointe explained that the claims were intended to mean that their products emitted no pollution or carbon dioxide at the point of use.

3. They said the phrase "NO EXPLOSIONS" did not appear in the current version of the brochure, and the phrase " ... in 2008 there were more than 400,000 explosions of different magnitudes when using combustion for boilers or water heaters" referred to 400,000 entries found on the internet when searching words such as 'gas' and 'explosions'.

Assessment

1. Upheld

The ASA considered that readers would expect the claim "60% ENERGY SAVING" for the digital electric radiator to be based on the results of tests. Rointe had sent no tests or any other documentary evidence to substantiate the claim. We also considered that the basis of the comparison was unclear from the ad: it was not clear whether Rointe were claiming that the digital electric radiator provided a 60% energy saving compared with a boiler, panel heater, storage heater and convector, or whether Rointe were claiming a 60% energy saving for their product compared with other electric radiators. We concluded that the claim "60% ENERGY SAVING" for the digital electric radiator was unsubstantiated and misleading.

On this point, ad (a) breached CAP Code (Edition 12) rules 3.1 (Misleading advertising), 3.7 (Substantiation) and 3.38 (Other comparisons).

2. Upheld

We considered that readers would expect, from the claims that the Rointe System produced zero pollution and zero carbon dioxide emissions, that Rointe had taken into account the full life cycle of the heating system from manufacture to disposal. We noted Rointe had sent no evidence at all to support the claims, let alone evidence that they had used a 'cradle to grave' assessment in considering whether Rointe System produced pollution and carbon dioxide emissions. We concluded that the claims were unsubstantiated, exaggerated and misleading.

On this point, ad (b) breached CAP Code (Edition 12) rules 3.1 (Misleading advertising), 3.7 (Substantiation), 3.11 (Exaggeration), 11.1, 11.3 and 11.4 (Environmental claims).

3. Upheld

We considered the claims "Any kind of combustion produces fumes and carbon dioxide, so dangerous for the human life", "CO2 and other harmful gases which may affect human health", "the Rointe System ... does not produce fumes or carbon dioxide etc so the risk to an occupant's health is nil" and "The fact of having gas or liquid fuels at home, even with all the safety mechanisms, represents an important risk and, unfortunately sometimes, it has fatal consequences ..." implied that carbon dioxide, heating systems involving combustion, and gas or liquid fuels in the home represented a real danger for consumers which they needed to act on, and that the Rointe System was safer than alternative systems. Rointe had not explained their rationale for the claims or demonstrated that they were justified, and we therefore considered the claims were exaggerated, misleading and likely to cause undue fear by implying that alternatives to the Rointe System were less safe.

We understood that the claim "According to statistics, in 2008 there were more than 400,000 explosions of different magnitudes when using combustion for boilers or water heaters" was based on an internet search, the results of which had not been provided. We considered that readers would expect the claim to be based on official statistics and Rointe ought to have been able to provide those statistics, confirm their source and explain the degree of severity of the 400,000 explosions. We therefore considered that claim was also exaggerated, misleading and likely to cause undue fear by implying that alternatives to the Rointe System were less safe. Although Rointe had said the phrase "NO EXPLOSIONS" had been deleted, we nevertheless considered the reference to explosions when using combustion for boilers or water heaters was more problematic under the Code (Edition 12) than the claim "NO EXPLOSIONS".

On this point, ad (b) breached CAP Code (Edition 12) rules 3.1 (Misleading advertising), 3.7 (Substantiation), 3.11 (Exaggeration), 3.38 (Other comparisons) and 4.2 (Harm and offence).

Action

The ads must not appear again in their current form. We told Rointe to remove the claim "60% ENERGY SAVING" for the digital electric radiator in ad (a). We also told them to remove the claims in ad (b) that the Rointe System produced zero pollution and zero carbon dioxide emissions, and to remove the references in ad (b) to explosions when using combustion for boilers or water heaters, the risk of carbon dioxide and combustion to human life and health, and the sometimes fatal consequences of having gas or liquid fuels at home. We advised them to contact the CAP Copy Advice team for help in amending the ads.

penrhyn

yossarian_f wrote: »

I am reading some guy claiming he can by 70 (seventy!) 20 pound panel heaters for one Rointe K Series.
I have got a Rointe price list in front of me. Most expensive is 622 pounds at Trade Price.

70 x 20 =1400
1400 <> 622

I am putting this in arithmetic terms as I get the impression there are loads of psuedo-scientists on this thread, who should enjoy exercising their amateur scientist muscles a bit more (some of them really need to do so!).

Cheaper than that if your search the interweb.
I suspect the quote refers to a older person who has been conned into spending a fortune on these or heaters by an unscrupulous salesman.