Making somebody redundant - where do I stand legally?

Lifeisbutadream

Zazen999 wrote: »

You have 3 choices:
sack him
make him redundant
compromise agreement

Make your choice but make sure you follow the procedure and your reasoning and business decision making is watertight - and if you can't justify making him redundant [and do answer my question on if he appealed], then just use the compromise agreement -

If you choose redundancy - if he wants his apprenticeship then do not be surprised if he is advised to appeal and take you to a tribunal [and he could win which would cost alot more than the compromise agreement in the long run].

I missed your question on if he appealed sorry.

I dont know how it works, but yes we could prove there was no work for him - he simply helps on jobs - anything specific that he is given usually has to be done again due to mistakes. We could easily do without him! in fact they would probably get more done.

We only have 2 months work ahead of us at the moment - it's usually around 6 - so thats not a problem either.

I would feel much more comfortable doing that than hounding him with every little thing he does wrong.

Zazen999

Lifeisbutadream wrote: »

I dont know how it works, but yes we could prove there was no work for him - he simply helps on jobs - anything specific that he is given usually has to be done again due to mistakes. We could easily do without him! in fact they would probably get more done.

a tribunal might argue that
a - he just needed proper supervision and training to get the job done properly
b - if there are still jobs; then there is still work to be done, which means his position is not redundant.

Lifeisbutadream

Thanks for everyone's help.

One thing I have learn't is that once he has gone I will not be taking on another Apprentice. Ever.

So much for trying to do a good thing. The stress simply isn't worth it.

Zazen999

To be fair; you just recruited badly. Anyone who has had that number of jobs came with ticker tape and warning signs all over them.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Lifeisbutadream

Zazen999 wrote: »

To be fair; you just recruited badly. Anyone who has had that number of jobs came with ticker tape and warning signs all over them.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

I agree. He was a friend of a friend of a friend and because he was older we thought he would be more reliable (he is 24). I still won't do it again though.

Lifeisbutadream

Mudd14 wrote: »

Lifeisbutadream - It sounds like you are waiting for someone to say it is ok to make him redundant when it is not the case. If there is a genuine reason for redundancy then people would have mentione dit already but it honestly sounds like you have a problem with his work and trying to use redundancy as a way to dismiss him.

Yes you would have to pay him notice +accrued holiday + redundancy pay if you made him redundant.

Strictly off the record it sounds like if you did go the redundancy route he wouldnt appeal it , but of course there is the chance that he would and take you to ET where you would end up paying ALOT more in compensation as the redundancy shouldnt of happened.

This obviously can happen if you dismissed him on grounds of performance, however, if you followed all the correct procedures it would be hard for him to have a valid case.

I am not waiting for someone to say that it is OK to make him redundant.

I wanted to know how to make someone redundant - I have a fair few places to go to for advice now, which is what I will do.

DCodd

Lifeisbutadream wrote: »

Thanks for everyone's help.

One thing I have learn't is that once he has gone I will not be taking on another Apprentice. Ever.

So much for trying to do a good thing. The stress simply isn't worth it.

It was just this guy really, we have a couple of brilliant, hard working and proactive apprentices. Don't give up on the idea for the future. They can be of a real benefit.

Good luck in what you decide.

Lifeisbutadream

DCodd wrote: »

It was just this guy really, we have a couple of brilliant, hard working and proactive apprentices. Don't give up on the idea for the future. They can be of a real benefit.

Good luck in what you decide.

I have just spoken to Acas and they have told me that I can make him redundant and as I am not taking anyone else on then although he can appeal it is very unlikely that anything would be done as the workload would be absorbed by the people left in the company now.

I am going to write him a letter this week to say that his job is at risk or redundancy.

zzzLazyDaisy

For what it is worth, this does not sound like a redundancy situation to me.

It sounds like you have an employee who does not meet your standards of conduct and performance and has been a problem for some time. That is a disciplinary matter to be dealt with through the disciplinary procedures.

You had the chance to dismiss him fairly, for gross misconduct, when you caught him fiddling his time sheets, but you chose to give him a warning instead. In doing so, you indicated that you did not believe his actions were bad enough to warrant dismissal, but instead you decided to give him another chance to improve. You are now saying that you no longer trust him because of this incident and want to terminate his employment. Not because he has done something else since, but because of what he did before, and which you have already dealt with. A dismissal in those circumstances would be unfair.

It isn't a case of waiting for him to do something else wrong and hounding him for every little detail - that too would be unfair. The point of disciplinary procedures is to warn the employee that their conduct/performance is not up to scratch and to give him the opportunity to improve, so that further disciplinary action is not necessary. Of course, that won't suit you, because you have already decided that you want to get rid of him.

I would strongly urge you to telephone your local ACAS office and seek advice. They give free impartial information on employment related problems.

As others have said, if you insist in going down the redundancy route you must be able to show that your need for an apprentice has ceased to exist (not this particular apprentice). If he goes to a tribunal and the tribunal decide that the reason you no longer want an apprentice is that you no longer want THIS apprentice, your arguments won't help you - it will be deemed an unfair dismissal. So you need to show clear objective business reasons why your business must end its apprenticeship scheme, and terminate his contract early.

If he does make a claim to an ET, you might wish to consider making an early settlement through ACAS rather than put yourself through the expense, stress, and inconvenience of fighting the case.

But whatever you do, please take advice, as you could be getting yourself into a costly situation.

EDIT cross posted

Savvy_Sue

Lifeisbutadream wrote: »

I do want to do the right thing here - this is the first employee that we have had (and it will probably be the last with all the hassle he is causing us)

Personally, I think the right thing is always to be honest. Even if you can go for redundancy, you'd be fighting NOT to do that IF he was a better employee.

Lifeisbutadream wrote: »

I honestly don't want to do that to him! he has also had around 12 jobs before he came to us - he always told us it was because he wasnt sure what he wanted to do, but I think I can see a pattern emerging...

Again, that's why being honest is in HIS long term best interests, surely. Unless he's now decided he's not sure he wants to be a joiner ...

Zazen999 wrote: »

This apprentice will learn nothing if you make him redundant; and will possibly go on with a good reference to create havoc in another company. Plus, he might get funding from the displaced apprentices fund [through CITB] that would be better spent on another apprentice that really deserves another chance. So, it's not just his life you will be affecting by taking him down the incorrect route for your situation.

Very good points. Plus, if you do give a good and not entirely truthful reference, and the new company discovers that actually you were not satisfied with his work, I believe - could be wrong - that they can sue you for not being truthful.