Making somebody redundant - where do I stand legally?

Lifeisbutadream

robpw2 wrote: »

no but someone who is studying contract law i do understand bits

i dont have a job due to my health fair enough but to be honest any BOSS or Employer who is seeking information about how to get rid of an employee on a website to do with money saving needs to seriously question there abiltiy to manage !!

Are you serious? what is this site for if not to ask advice??

I run two businesses Rob - you don't just suddenly wake up with the ability to do that, you learn as you go along. As I am the only one in the office, this site (amongst others) is my lifeline - real people talking about real experiences.

I did not ask for opinions on my ability to run a business, or whether my Apprentice is really a poor little lad who is being picked on, I asked how to make someone redundant. If you can't help and you feel so sorry for him, why don't you give him a job? :rolleyes: PM me your details and I will pass his information to you.

robpw2

i think your employee should view this thread and your other thread and if he has any sense he should find another job .

Debt_Free_Chick

Lifeisbutadream wrote: »

I do not see why I should have to 'pay him off' and TBH, although I want to go down the correct route, I simply would not do that - why should I pay him to leave?

You can not simply dismiss him without pay.

You have to take him down the disciplinary route. How long is that likely to take, assuming that he doesn't improve and you end up with grounds to dismiss him? Three months? Well, you'll be paying him for those three months anyway, so the compromise agreement route gives you the option of paying him and getting rid immediately.

the alternative is to pay him and get rid - or possibly not, if he improves - in three months time.

Is it easier to say that we can't afford him? its not like we have millions in teh bank !

Assuming you could construct a case for redundancy, then you have to go through the process and still pay him his notice.

There is no option that avoids paying him something - sorry.

(Other than Gross Misconduct, which isn't currently an option)

Zazen999

You have 3 choices:
sack him
make him redundant
compromise agreement

Make your choice but make sure you follow the procedure and your reasoning and business decision making is watertight - and if you can't justify making him redundant [and do answer my question on if he appealed], then just use the compromise agreement -

If you choose redundancy - if he wants his apprenticeship then do not be surprised if he is advised to appeal and take you to a tribunal [and he could win which would cost alot more than the compromise agreement in the long run].

garthdp

i sympathise with you Lifeisbutadream but do heed the advice that is being given here no matter how much it may stick in the craw.Carrying deadwood in a small business is very irritating and stressful and you have to make the best (and sometimes hardest) decisions for the good of the business .You are not being hard hearted, it sounds to me that you have been patient with this kid but have reached the end of your tether.However do take proper professional advice on terminating his employment as it can come back and hurt your business.You may well be able to prove a case for redundancy but do make sure it is watertight before you go down that route.
Disciplinary dismissal may be the easier option as by the sound of him, I am sure if you give him enough rope he will hang himself and present you with an opportunity to move the process through the stages but again make sure you are watertight.

Good luck, its hard enough running a business and making a profit nowadays without carrying passengers

Lifeisbutadream

Debt_Free_Chick wrote: »

You can not simply dismiss him without pay.

You have to take him down the disciplinary route. How long is that likely to take, assuming that he doesn't improve and you end up with grounds to dismiss him? Three months? Well, you'll be paying him for those three months anyway, so the compromise agreement route gives you the option of paying him and getting rid immediately.

the alternative is to pay him and get rid - or possibly not, if he improves - in three months time.



Assuming you could construct a case for redundancy, then you have to go through the process and still pay him his notice.

There is no option that avoids paying him something - sorry.

(Other than Gross Misconduct, which isn't currently an option)

Of course I wouldnt dismiss him without pay - I will pay him for what he works, but I don't want to pay him 'compensation'.

If I make him redundant surely I can give him notice, paying him for that obviously? his contract is a weeks notice.

Lifeisbutadream

garthdp wrote: »

i sympathise with you Lifeisbutadream but do heed the advice that is being given here no matter how much it may stick in the craw.Carrying deadwood in a small business is very irritating and stressful and you have to make the best (and sometimes hardest) decisions for the good of the business .You are not being hard hearted, it sounds to em that you have been payient with this kid but have reached the end of your tether.However do take proper proffesional advice on terminating his employment as it can come back and hurt your business.You may well be able to prove a case for redundancy but do make sure it is watertight before you go sown that route.Disciplinary dismissal may be the easier option as by the sound of him, I am sure if you give him enough rope he will hang himself and presernt you with an opportunity to move the process through the stages but again make sure you are watertight.

Good luck, its hard enough running a business and making a profit nowadays without carrying passengers

Thanks - I would be able to do the disciplinary easily - unless he suddenly changes after all these months, then he will do something again soon I have no doubt at all.

I honestly don't want to do that to him! he has also had around 12 jobs before he came to us - he always told us it was because he wasnt sure what he wanted to do, but I think I can see a pattern emerging...

Mudd14

Lifeisbutadream - It sounds like you are waiting for someone to say it is ok to make him redundant when it is not the case. If there is a genuine reason for redundancy then people would have mentione dit already but it honestly sounds like you have a problem with his work and trying to use redundancy as a way to dismiss him.

Yes you would have to pay him notice +accrued holiday + redundancy pay if you made him redundant.

Strictly off the record it sounds like if you did go the redundancy route he wouldnt appeal it , but of course there is the chance that he would and take you to ET where you would end up paying ALOT more in compensation as the redundancy shouldnt of happened.

This obviously can happen if you dismissed him on grounds of performance, however, if you followed all the correct procedures it would be hard for him to have a valid case.

Debt_Free_Chick

Lifeisbutadream wrote: »

Of course I wouldnt dismiss him without pay - I will pay him for what he works, but I don't want to pay him 'compensation'.

If I make him redundant surely I can give him notice, paying him for that obviously? his contract is a weeks notice.

Just make sure you have a solid case for redundancy. Simply saying that the business can't afford him is clearly not the whole of the matter and you need to be sure that if he appeals .... right up to Employment Tribunal, then you not only face paying him compensation if he wins, you will also have expensive legal bills to pay in order to be represented.

Others have made this point, but I'll make it again ..... you absolutely must be confident that the redundancy excuse is watertight and will see you through Employment Tribunal.

Remember, that he can get free advice from ACAS who, if he has a case, will also help him to win at Tribunal!

Here's the ACAS Guide to Handling Redundancy

Business Link will help small employers.

Zazen999

You also just want to hope that none of his friends and family read this and make the connection - as showing this in an appeal would definitely swing it his way.

One word of advice; I have had to take people through disciplinaries that I didn't want to do but had to be done; and they are still friends to this day. You have to detach your business head from your personal head - and address the issue properly. You will get more respect in the long run if you can manage the situation properly.

This apprentice will learn nothing if you make him redundant; and will possibly go on with a good reference to create havoc in another company. Plus, he might get funding from the displaced apprentices fund [through CITB] that would be better spent on another apprentice that really deserves another chance. So, it's not just his life you will be affecting by taking him down the incorrect route for your situation.

I personally think that you need to spend some quality time with the guidance notes; I suspect you will do what you want anyway and hope it works out for you.