Are Tips illegal???

Any

Anihilator wrote: »

Were have they gone?
they have gone awfully quiet now

Didn't you say from the beginning that all tips basically belong to the business?

Because if you read whole Peter's post they don't...

Sorry, my mistake. I've just noticed that later in the thread you changed that opinion.

Anihilator

Yes it certainly seems to be the informed case.

Tbh its a bit of a ridicolous situation where some tips are allowed and others are not.

Saying that I don't really accept that staff who are paid the minimum wage have any moral/ethical right to keep them. How is it any different from minmum wage cleaners, or shop staff who have the misfortune to work in an industry were tipping isnt the norm.

as far as I am concerned as long as they are paid the NMW they should see tips as a bonus and not have laws protecting their right to keep them.

Any

Anihilator wrote: »

Yes it certainly seems to be the informed case.

Tbh its a bit of a ridicolous situation where some tips are allowed and others are not.

Saying that I don't really accept that staff who are paid the minimum wage have any moral/ethical right to keep them. How is it any different from minmum wage cleaners, or shop staff who have the misfortune to work in an industry were tipping isnt the norm.

as far as I am concerned as long as they are paid the NMW they should see tips as a bonus and not have laws protecting their right to keep them.

Hmm, difficult this one... that is the thing - you don't have to give them tip if you don't want to. I can assure you that I don't give tips just because it is the norm. I give tips only when they are nice, smiley and good at what they do.

I get bonus at work when I work hard... I suppose it is the same situation? Incentive to work harder?

Anihilator

In that case surely it would be up to the employer to distribute based on performance.

As you said its a matter of opinion that one. I just find it quite unusual that waiters think by simply carrying a few drinks to a table they should automatically be entitled to a tip over their NMW.

Anywere I have worked bonuses are very much performance related and discretionary.

rumbaba

PeterJDavies wrote: »

BreadlineBetty, pickledpink and rumbaba, you're wrong, sorry. Let me try and cut through the arguments here. The link earlier back on this thread (at post #16) was actually an article written by me, and I do know what I'm talking about here having dealt with this issue for tax and employment law purposes for some 10 years now. Annihilator, there was no legal references because in a short media article it tends to act as a bit of a turn-off to the audience.

Cash tips do not belong to the business; they belong to the waiter. UK Courts clarified this in the 1950s, google the case - Wrottesley v Regent Street Florida Restaurant.

Card tips and service charges (including service charges paid in cash) belong to the business - Nerva v RLG Ltd, upheld in the European Court of Human Rights (Nerva vs United Kingdom). So there is no theft or stealing. Morally wrong does not equate to legally wrong.

It is not illegal to tip. It is not illegal for a business to keep money which is it's legal property (no matter how wrong it may sound). If a business is trading in administration then the administrators have a legal duty to the creditors. Staff, generally, are not creditors unless they are owed arrears of wages. However I agree that in this case the fairest solution would have been for the administrators to drop the service charge, then they don't have the legal issue of giving away money, and allow the staff to collect and retain all their tips in cash instead.

And to cover the tax issue - all tips are taxable income and waiters have a legal duty to tell the Revenue about the cash they get. Of course most don't, but that doesn't make it right. Many get caught and faced with big bills. I don't begrudge waiters decent tips - they work long hours in a tough job for low pay - but I have to pay tax on all my income, and I don't see why a waiter shouldn't either.

The only thing that changed on 1st October was that a payment of tips/service charges no longer counted as earnings for Minimum Wage. Nothing else changed. A business can still absorb service proceeds into its own funds, and use it to pay for whatever it wants including rent, heating, breakages and food.

Until Nerva is overturned at Strasbourg that is the law.

Sorry, Peter, but the new ruling also states that besides the NMW service charge cannot go towards overheads, business costs, or running of the establishment. All service charge money (even that paid by credit card) MUST go into a separate bank account and be given to the staff on top of their national minimum wage.

It's on all the legal Inland Revenue sites!

Anihilator

rumbaba wrote: »

Sorry, Peter, but the new ruling also states that besides the NMW service charge cannot go towards overheads, business costs, or running of the establishment. All service charge money (even that paid by credit card) MUST go into a separate bank account and be given to the staff on top of their national minimum wage.

It's on all the legal Inland Revenue sites!

Well supply the links then.

I am interested too see this. I still think your reading it out of context or in isolation. I very much doubt that HMRC are dictating restaurants have to pay over NMW and no one else.

rumbaba

Anihilator wrote: »

Were have they gone?
they have gone awfully quiet now

I haven't gone quiet! It just so happens I have a life, you know, and I don't spend all my waking hours like some saddo glued to their PC like you do!

Anyway, you've been proved WRONG - yet again. I suggest you stop giving out information of which you have no knowledge. It makes you look rather silly in addition to being a p ratt.

rumbaba

Any wrote: »

Didn't you say from the beginning that all tips basically belong to the business?

Because if you read whole Peter's post they don't...

Sorry, my mistake. I've just noticed that later in the thread you changed that opinion.

Oh, he often edits all his mistakes.:D Sily old f art!

Anihilator

rumbaba wrote: »

I haven't gone quiet! It just so happens I have a life, you know, and I don't spend all my waking hours like some saddo glued to their PC like you do!

Anyway, you've been proved WRONG - yet again. I suggest you stop giving out information of which you have no knowledge. It makes you look rather silly in addition to being a p ratt.

No you havent proved me wrong. You have said I am wrong with no proof. Theres a very big difference.

Why is it you resort to abuse? Also do you not think there is something unequitable about Restaurant staff having a higher NMW than everyone else?

rumbaba

Anihilator wrote: »

Yes it certainly seems to be the informed case.

Tbh its a bit of a ridicolous situation where some tips are allowed and others are not.

Saying that I don't really accept that staff who are paid the minimum wage have any moral/ethical right to keep them. How is it any different from minmum wage cleaners, or shop staff who have the misfortune to work in an industry were tipping isnt the norm.

as far as I am concerned as long as they are paid the NMW they should see tips as a bonus and not have laws protecting their right to keep them.

Sounds to me that you're just piqued because traffic wardens don't get tips. You are the traffic warden aren't you? Or is that some other member on here who gets all his facts wrong too?

By the way, if a customer wants to tip a waiter - that's THEIR business. So you think it's acceptable for the restaurant to steal it do you?!

You sound like a very mean and bitter man for some reason.