Are Tips illegal???

breadlinebetty

Anihilator wrote: »

I would suggest you are reading these articles out of context and it wouldnt be backed up by law.

Whatever are you talking about? It's there in BLKACK AND WHITE! Can't you grasp what you read?:rolleyes:

breadlinebetty

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=2098235

Click on the above thread for more information on tipping in restaurants.

Anihilator

breadlinebetty wrote: »

Whatever are you talking about? It's there in BLKACK AND WHITE! Can't you grasp what you read?:rolleyes:

Please state the full law you are referring to.

You have quoted an article which has no hard facts or states what law it is referring to.

It isnt black and white because its very easy to argue that a service charge is a profit element and not to cover overheads:rolleyes:

rumbaba

Anihilator,

Why are you so rattled about this? What BB has said is absolutely correct!

I can get my family member who is a business lawyer to explain it you this evening, and then maybe you'll understand it better.

If you are all in a state about it right now, I suggest you google up some of the Inland Revenue websites where it is all set out in simple terms for people such as yourself.

The fact is, the law changed in October and all SC monies are solely for the waiting staff; whether it's paid directly to them each eveing/week or month on top of their salary, or whether the restaurant sets up a separate holding bank account for the SC money to go through, and they then pay the staff from that bank account.

The SC money belongs to the waiting staff. I'm amazed you can't seem to comprehend that!

rumbaba

One more thing before I forget: someone mentioned restaurants keeping the service charge on the bill, and not forwarding that money onth the waiters. If they are caught doing this they are in BIG TROUBLE. It is theft.

Like several others on here, I always give my tips, in cash, directly to the waiter. If anyone spot s a service charge on the bill refuse to pay it, and just pay cash to the waiter instead.

Out of interest, what sort of work do you do, Anihilator?

pickledpink

The restaurant keeping the tips is what's illegal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad: They're stealing money from their staff! Customers don't pay service charges thinking it's going towards heating bills for the restaurant!!!!:eek: They should be reported!

I didn't think people paid service charges these days - people usually pay tips in cash directly to the waiters/waitresses. I've always known the restaurants have pocketed that money. About time they've been taken to task!

A restaurant (good one) could rake in a couple of grand a night by stealing their waiting staffs tips!:eek: It's outrageous when you consider waiters and waitresses earn a pittance!

Who was the muppet on here who said £6.50 was a decent wage???? Even paperboys earn more than that!:rotfl: Maybe he's one of those eccentrics who eats bread and marmite for breakfast, spam sandwich for lunch, and egg and a few chips for tea.:D And has patched up the same old shiny brown trousers for the last 25 years. I'd like to see what sort of restaurant he deems special if he's only on £6.50 an hour. I'd say the Wimpy Bar would just about be in his budget!:rotfl:

PeterJDavies

BreadlineBetty, pickledpink and rumbaba, you're wrong, sorry. Let me try and cut through the arguments here. The link earlier back on this thread (at post #16) was actually an article written by me, and I do know what I'm talking about here having dealt with this issue for tax and employment law purposes for some 10 years now. Annihilator, there was no legal references because in a short media article it tends to act as a bit of a turn-off to the audience.

Cash tips do not belong to the business; they belong to the waiter. UK Courts clarified this in the 1950s, google the case - Wrottesley v Regent Street Florida Restaurant.

Card tips and service charges (including service charges paid in cash) belong to the business - Nerva v RLG Ltd, upheld in the European Court of Human Rights (Nerva vs United Kingdom). So there is no theft or stealing. Morally wrong does not equate to legally wrong.

It is not illegal to tip. It is not illegal for a business to keep money which is it's legal property (no matter how wrong it may sound). If a business is trading in administration then the administrators have a legal duty to the creditors. Staff, generally, are not creditors unless they are owed arrears of wages. However I agree that in this case the fairest solution would have been for the administrators to drop the service charge, then they don't have the legal issue of giving away money, and allow the staff to collect and retain all their tips in cash instead.

And to cover the tax issue - all tips are taxable income and waiters have a legal duty to tell the Revenue about the cash they get. Of course most don't, but that doesn't make it right. Many get caught and faced with big bills. I don't begrudge waiters decent tips - they work long hours in a tough job for low pay - but I have to pay tax on all my income, and I don't see why a waiter shouldn't either.

The only thing that changed on 1st October was that a payment of tips/service charges no longer counted as earnings for Minimum Wage. Nothing else changed. A business can still absorb service proceeds into its own funds, and use it to pay for whatever it wants including rent, heating, breakages and food.

Until Nerva is overturned at Strasbourg that is the law.

barloo69

Glad thats sorted then. !

zzzLazyDaisy

PeterJDavies wrote: »

BreadlineBetty, pickledpink and rumbaba, you're wrong, sorry. Let me try and cut through the arguments here. The link earlier back on this thread (at post #16) was actually an article written by me, and I do know what I'm talking about here having dealt with this issue for tax and employment law purposes for some 10 years now. .

Great post - welcome to the forums!

Anihilator

Were have they gone?
they have gone awfully quiet now