Our builder won't give receipts for materials

Alan_M_2

hilary1 wrote:

I work for a builders.

We give a price for a job including materials. Once that is agreed, if we happen to source cheaper materials thats a bit more profit. You cannot survive if you have to sell on materials at the price you buy them. Thats whats known as 'trade prices'.

If you thinkk a quote is too high suggest supplying the materials yourself or ask for a materials price and a labour price, then decide.

We dont give material receipts to customers. If something goes wrong, say with a shower for instance, we cover the guarantee period.

A price shpould include all materials if the contractor is supplying. Only if something really unexpected comes up should there be a suggestion of having to buy anything extra.

most good builders would have to cover unexpected costs and price rises during jobs themselves anyway.

Confilct happens when you try to get something for nothing or choose a dodgy builder based on the lowest price alone.

Why is everyone being so nasty to everyone. Business is busines.

Hilary expalins clearly standard business practice in the building industry.

Now is Hilarys' company being unreasonable?

If so why, becuase this is the basic principal on which any business in the construction industry operates.

MyUserNamesTaken

Alan_M wrote:

I was trying to get across in my post that no matter who you employ, you need references. With an immigrant workforce you also run further risks which I clearly explained, and tried to do so in a non racist manner.

Please detail the further risks you run when using "immigrant" (read "Polish") workers/tradesmen (who will either stay or not stay in the UK), and how they differ from the very real risks you run when using a cowboy builder or the such like in this country?

The second part is more important than the first, by the way. Tell me how the risks are any different. Incidentally, you'll find many Poles get their work through word of mouth. Most do excellent work. If anything, the risk is lower than using a so-called builder who advertises in the local rag giving only a mobile number.


You talk about the free market. That's exactly what the Poles are doing - taking advantage of our Free Market economy. It is a free market. You can't have it both ways, Alan. Either you're for it (and accept that qualified Polish tradesmen have just as much right to work over here and make a living, as any other builder. They also have the right to choose where they spend their money, be it here or Poland, as this is a European free market, remember), or against it. If you're against it, stop arguing that it's fine for builders to add a little on top of the price they've paid for materials. If you're for it, stop slagging off the Poles.

Wig

Alan_M wrote:

Oh you're such a teaser (slap my thighs), please explain yourself. This mere mortal is dying for your knowledge

What would like explained?

Ask me a straight question I'll give you a straight answer.

Rhetorical nonsence(In a mildy amusing pantomime style) isn't exactly a question is it now........

Sorry you dodged my question so many times I guess it's understandable that your overworked brain can't remember or look back to find out what it was.

Please explain what in post #70 enabled you to come to this conclusion

"Your idealist outlook really just shows you have no comprehension of how basic businesses operate and make a profit and your post really is utter nonsence."

It was a very strange remark to make given that you knew my post was opinion of how *ideally* things could theoretically work. So for the 3rd or 4th time or is it 5th (I lost count ) I await your reply.

Alan_M_2

MyUserNamesTaken wrote:

Please detail the further risks you run when using "immigrant" (read "Polish") workers/tradesmen (who will either stay or not stay in the UK), and how they differ from the very real risks you run when using a cowboy builder or the such like in this country?

The second part is more important than the first, by the way. Tell me how the risks are any different. Incidentally, you'll find many Poles get their work through word of mouth. Most do excellent work. If anything, the risk is lower than using a so-called builder who advertises in the local rag giving only a mobile number.

I agree completely, which is exactly how I explained, you run the risk when anyone you employ, however with immigrant builders (read anyone not a UK citizen or permanent resident of the UK - but feel free to read Polish if you wish), if you find 18 months down the line that there's subsidence from a major structural error, will they still be in the country? Are they a permanent resident? Do they have a permanent address at which they have a registered and insured business? (If they are a limited company the likelyhood is they do) So are they a Ltd Company?

None of these questions are in any way racist, some but not all of these questions apply to rougue traders who are UK born and bred, every one of these questions applies to an immigrant worker who may or may not be a permanent resident of the UK.

These are the further risks that need to be considered should you wish to employ a foregin worker/company.

Do you find this unreasonable?

The idea of my posts in general are not to arbitarily abuse any non British worker, but to make members of the public that aren't involved in the industry aware that questions need to be asked and that some of these questions aren't exactly politically correct or indeed pleasant but the need to be asked.

Caveat Empor is as old as written text on this planet......Buyer Beware.....I am simply helping people by putting in print the questions they should be asking. If that makes me predjudice then so be it.

bigchasbroon

Sorry to interupt boys but did you know the world cups on?

Alan_M_2

bigchasbroon wrote:

Sorry to interupt boys but did you know the world cups on?

That's funny


:rotfl:

Alan_M_2

Wig wrote:

Sorry you dodged my question so many times I guess it's understandable that your overworked brain can't remember or look back to find out what it was.

Please explain what in post #70 enabled you to come to this conclusion

"Your idealist outlook really just shows you have no comprehension of how basic businesses operate and make a profit and your post really is utter nonsence."

It was a very strange remark to make given that you knew my post was opinion of how *ideally* things could theoretically work. So for the 3rd or 4th time or is it 5th (I lost count ) I await your reply.

Your original post is as follows:-

I will reply in length in between in paragraph:-


Alan M,

It is certainly 'normal' for tradesmen to mark up materials they buy, inc motor mechanics too. You think it is acceptable. I don't. IMO there should be no such thing as a 'trade discount' tradesmen should base their profits on their hourly rate for labour and nothing else. If for no other reason than it would make life a lot less complicated for all concerned. The only discounts should be for bulk buys on a single transaction, i.e. a box of 50 screws is going to cost more per screw than a box of 1000 screws.

Bulk discount is not as simple as 50 items or 100 items, sure it is in principle, but bulk purchaes may take place over mulitple transactions in an infinate amount of time, it can't simply be pigeon holed into black or white, there is a huge grey ara in between. This grey area is made up of the following, How much does this customer want to buy from me in this transaction? am I likely to get more trade from this custmer, what are the expected future sales to this customer if I discount this single sale? Should I infact sell this as a loss leader to gain the future sales of this customer? There are a multitude of prices and discounts to be considered.

You compared this to Tesco's making a profit. Tesco's is a retailer as you well know, and totally different to a tradesman. When you go to the till at Tesco you don't get charged seperately for the hourly rate of the staff in the store depending how long you have been in there shoping (and divided by the no. of customers in the store at the time). You know you are buying a product from a retailer and within the price is the profit margin for the retailer.

Tesco being a large supermarket retailler will have employed at some stage, a time and motion study on how long each member of staff takes to process a particular item or customer, so fundamentally you are paying for an hourly rate of every employee with a markup to cover fixed overheads other than staffing costs, it's just calculated in a different way. Tesco's prices are based on what they feel they can sell an item at, how much damage it can do to their competition without invoking the wrath of the monoploies commission and what margin they feel they can comfortably operate at. You think Tesco are in business to make you, the customer, happy or make money and put down it's competitor?

A taxi driver charges his rate per mile, he doesn't add on his fuel costs, he may get his fuel at a discount, but he doesn't charge the customer the 20% discount he got on his fuel or on his tyres or brakes etc.

Licenced taxi drivers are governed by pre set policy passed at government level, they are not free to charge as they wish,their cost per mile per person is set and they are not free to alter or discount their rates, as a result they are allowed certian extra dispensation with fuel and servicing costs.

I am joe public, and unlike djohn have never had a trade account at TP, but even I can get a trade discount at TP, I just ask for it and it is given. I got about 50% off a couple of acrow props doing just this. And I just phoned up a local timberyard 25mm standard ply (not rough, not marine) with a far eastern hardwood construction 32 +VAT standard quote, I made it quite clear I was not a tradesman.

The board I was referring to was WBP Plywood not internal quality plywood, for 25mm it retails from £45 up to £60 per sheet plus VAT, trade I have found it available in the low to mid £30's, Internal ply is approximately 30%-40% cheaper (my prices being based on the area in which I live - Surrey - so these may fluctuate throughout the country)

I can also get a trade discount at Vauxhall dealers, just by saying I am a taxi driver, I can also apply for a tradeclub card account at vauxhalls and get even more money off fairly easily.

Vauxhall are promoting their products in a hope that your next vehicle will be a Vauxhall, the incentive is that they will discount parts required as they define you as closely associated with the motor business, indeed this confirms exactly my point, that trade discounts are a grey area that are subject to negotiation. In this case Vauxhall are using the "Discount" as an advertising cost.

So IMO the whole tradition of discounts to trade should stop. Why should they get a discount? Why not price everything the same price to all customers. It would make everyones life easier, from the guy phoning for a quote, to the guy giving a quote trying to work out if his customer phoning him is "in the trade" or not, to the end customer who would know the tradesman is charging for labour and there are no hidden profits included.
Last edited by Wig : Yesterday at 2:13 PM.

Becuase we don't live in a communist state (thankfully) we are free to trade as we wish, it is one of the most basic human traits that we will try to obtain a deal if we can, and as long as democracy regins that will never change. Only one major monopoly exists on this planet that goes unchallenged - diamonds, DeBeers control so much of the planets resources that they can charge what they like, they are so wealthy and powerful that governemtns turn a blind eye to how they trade. If DeBeers released their mined stock of diamonds onto the world market now, the average diamond would be valued at £0.01 per carat, consider that next time you pass a jewellery store.

bigchasbroon

wow did you see the germany game exciting right up to the last kick.

"the world cup bringing people together"

MyUserNamesTaken

Alan_M wrote:

I agree completely, which is exactly how I explained, you run the risk when anyone you employ, however with immigrant builders (read anyone not a UK citizen or permanent resident of the UK - but feel free to read Polish if you wish), if you find 18 months down the line that there's subsidence from a major structural error, will they still be in the country? Are they a permanent resident? Do they have a permanent address at which they have a registered and insured business? (If they are a limited company the likelyhood is they do) So are they a Ltd Company?

None of these questions are in any way racist, some but not all of these questions apply to rougue traders who are UK born and bred, every one of these questions applies to an immigrant worker who may or may not be a permanent resident of the UK.

These are the further risks that need to be considered should you wish to employ a foregin worker/company.

Do you find this unreasonable?

The idea of my posts in general are not to arbitarily abuse any non British worker, but to make members of the public that aren't involved in the industry aware that questions need to be asked and that some of these questions aren't exactly politically correct or indeed pleasant but the need to be asked.

Caveat Empor is as old as written text on this planet......Buyer Beware.....I am simply helping people by putting in print the questions they should be asking. If that makes me predjudice then so be it.

You simply don't get it, do you? All the risks you've stated are the same for people who employ cowboy builders or Dave who advertises in the local rag with only a mobile number. In 18 months time, when something goes wrong, can you be sure that Dave will still be about for you to contact him? Get it yet? None of the risks you've stated apply only to "immigrant" workers. I say Polish because you singled out Poles in your earlier replies. It doesn't make a slight bit of difference if the contractor is still in the country or not. If he's gone bust, you're up !!!! creak without a paddle. If he's moved on and become uncontactable, you're still up !!!! creak without a paddle. You face this risk regardless of the nationality of the contractor. As it stands, I am more inclined to take on a Pole who has been recommended to me than some bloke who sticks a leaflet through my door.

Incidentally, any UK resident can !!!!!! off to another EU country to live whenever they like. So, even there the risk is the same. Can you assure me that Dodgy Dave hasn't upped and moved to Spain? No. Can you prove that the Pole who built my conservatory isn't a UK resident? No.

Is that clear enough for you now?

Again, which risks apply only to "immigrant" workers?

MyUserNamesTaken

bigchasbroon wrote:

Sorry to interupt boys but did you know the world cups on?

Yep, I was watching it - the other half is German. I'm not a boy, by the way. Alan, before you try to use my gender against me, let me tell you that my family is in the construction industry. I do know what I'm talking about.