Howdens Traders passing on discount - Scam??

CKdesigner

Dear Jillytb

I understand where you are coming from. I wouldn't necessarily say its a scam, more like very poor trading policies by Howdens.

As the other half and I own our own kitchen business we have had representatives of Howdens call on us several times over the years trying to get us to use their products, other than the fact that we think they are poor quality for the money, we have always sent them away with a flea in their ear for these very poor policies.

As far as I am concerned a manufacturer should either sell direct to the consumer or sell to a specific trade, not both as the mood takes them. There should be no deviation to this policy what so ever, because if there is then this sort of thing will happen and it just tarnishes the people/companies involved and to be honest the industry could do without it.

You are right about the issues you have pointed out about the invoicing. Howdens should have supplied an invoice to your builder/fitter then they should have provided an invoice to you. This invoice from the fitter is your official proof of purchase for the guarantee. As another point for correct invoicing - if Howdens don't issue an invoice to your fitter and also if your fitter doesn't invoice you correctly then I am sure the Revenue and Customs would be very interested because we all know how they like to make sure they get their slice.

Good luck.

CK

Imp

Your builder's practice seems "normal" when looked from the world of business/contracting. When you quote for a job, that is the moment in time that you could bankrupt yourself by underquoting. You also don't have much time to work up the quote, and because people normally get multiple quotes/just test the market you will probably win only one in three quotes.

Have you never heard contractors panic when they have won a job, thinking "what did the other bidders include which I didn't".

So what you do is send an enquiry to your supply chain, and include that in your quote. Remember, you don't have much time, and are probably putting the quote together in the evening, because you are doing work during the day.

So you win the job. You may have a couple of weeks to start, so you can ring up your supply chain and say "Jim, that quote you did, it's a bit pricy, what can you do for me?" And then the negotiations with suppliers can begin.

So, you were quoted a price which you accepted, and now you find out that the builder has managed his supply chain effectively and increased his profit. The builder is happy, you chould be happy because you got what you wanted for the price you wanted.

The last thing you want is a job where the builder looses money. You try and get him back to complete any snags. If he goes bust half way through the job, you could find his suppliers turning up to reclaim their goods. A builder making a fair profit on each job is essential.

Alan_M_2

This thread is a fine example of why this country is falling to pieces.

Profit is a dirty word in the UK - in fact profit is seen as a "scam".

Tesco's and out of town huge stores are thriving on this mentality and doing what they can to put competition out of business.......ask yourself what happens when nearly all the competition is gone and there are a handful of huge suppliers.....

Really, wake up and smell the roses, profit exists in any business, it's up to you to find out what you're paying before you say yes or no to the work.

jillytb

Alan_M wrote: »

This thread is a fine example of why this country is falling to pieces.

Profit is a dirty word in the UK - in fact profit is seen as a "scam".

Tesco's and out of town huge stores are thriving on this mentality and doing what they can to put competition out of business.......ask yourself what happens when nearly all the competition is gone and there are a handful of huge suppliers.....

Really, wake up and smell the roses, profit exists in any business, it's up to you to find out what you're paying before you say yes or no to the work.

Fine Alan, I agree the country is in a mess for so many reasons, although profit is not a dirty word at all but it is the lack of clear policies, transparency in ethical business practices and sheer dishonesty and being misled that leads many people like me not to accept this sort of practice. Take the MPs Expenses as an example.
It might be hard to believe but I run my own business and I deal with people on contracts and PSL's all the time and overlooked my business attitude, due to lack of time and resource, when dealing with this builder - silly I know but I have learnt - but his profit is not one he earned ethcically as he lied to me - this is my point. He needs to wake up and smell the scent of my determination as I will see this through as it was not what I agreed, the PAPERWORK reveals this.

Alan_M_2

jillytb wrote: »

but his profit is not one he earned ethcically

That made me chuckle.

I gather he quoted a price, you accepted and paid, and now you've found out what you could have got it for if you'd bargained a bit harder, and now you feel you've been robbed.......

Bonkers.

usignuolo

Some trades and sectors always charge a mark up on the goods they supply to customers. Not just builders, garages as well. Usually they are getting a wholesale trade price which is not the price available to the general public.

There are a number of ways around this: find a builder who charges you for his labour and only charges back the cost of the items used with receipts. This is how we did my bathroom. Or check the cost of the item if you bought it direct and make sure the builder charges you no more than this. Then whatever discount the builder gets from the supplier is down to him but you should not get charged extra on top of the retail price.

Or go to the stockist with the builder (or the showroom, in my case it was for a bathroom) and select the items you and he want to install. Then depending on terms they offer, builder buys and you reimburse him or you buy direct.

jillytb

I resent being overcharged when I have been misled in a most unethical way, I have new evidence now and I can see more of what is going on - my suspicions are confirmed and I objected to being deliberately ripped off and lied to.... If I overpay on something somewhere I usually say so what, my fault, but this is where I have actually been conned with well doctored paperwork! I have writtend to my builder today outlining the exact situation and where he stands now, Court or pay back - will update you when I get the results I want, I am not going to say "I paid over the odds" on this occasion!

leveller2911

I think the Kitchen industry like many others could act more ethically.I would agree that businesses are there to make a profit ,however personally I could not sleep easily at night knowing I had earned say £2k for 1 weeks work. I guess thats why I wn't die a rich man, but I will die with a clear conscience.

I have fitted Howdens Kitchens as I said before and found the branch I deal with very professional,however I also make bespoke kitchens which really are bespoke, where as in my area there are kitchen companies advertising as such ,but in reality they buy their units in and are all standard sizes 300,400,500,600 etc etc .They are incapable of making bespoke units.
They then load the price with their "profit margin" and charge the client a premium for what is in fact a bog standard Kitchen.The client is led to believe they are getting a premium product and paying for such but in fact its a bog standard one...Ive known these companies to charge £10k for a £3k kitchen and that is Not ethical..

They say there are cowboy builder , which there obviously are but there are cowboys in all trades ,some of which belong to trade associations too.
It is a minefield out there and IMO people should always go for personal recommendation and if you can contact previous clients...

jillytb

I took the builder to court over this matter and others, the judge agreed that I was misled by the builder and that he did not pass on the discount, he also did not allow the Howdens Manager that the builder brought in to the court as a witness.

I have all the court notes and I would say to anyone out there both consumers and builders be very careful how you word things and remember that the invoices are the guarantee as far as Howden are concerned and people like me are not so naive and will follow this through.

I have now been advised that as it was proved in a civil court I can now go to the police which I am doing.

Thank you to all who were kind enough to post supportive comments and I am so pleased with my victory. If you find yourself on the receiving end of a builder who is trying to cream off more profit to themselves when supply goods contact me. I had the same with an electrician recently and they ended up supplying all material at cost!!!!!!!!!!!

cddc

Glad in a way you won. Howdens pricing moves in mysterious ways. It did then and it still does now. Policies seem to differ from branch to branch and day to day. They should either be totally trade only or open their doors to everyone. Either Howdens should price people direct or only supply fitters who price the end user themselves. They really should not be quoting one price to the end user, and one to the fiitter. Some branches do this all the time. Others are so trade only they refuse to give replacement hinges or handles to end users because they are not trade.
I have no problem with trade discount per sae, but I have never liked the way they operate in some branches. It strikes me as fundementally dishonest.
Congratulations on your win, but I bet you if you could do it again you would get more than one quote!.