The SayNoTo0870 Article Discussion Area

bunking_off

bbb_uk wrote: »

Now to avoid this stigma on 084/087 number range then they could be called "special services number" (I believe Ofcom has sometimes referred to them as such in consultations).

The official designation of 08 as a whole is "special services" numbers; from memory I think that's always been the case, but obviously terms used in industry regulation versus customer marketing will differ (and, to be honest, 08 is more commonly known as NTS in industry circles - Number Translation Services).

There was an industry debate some years ago about where the breakpoint should be between 08 & 09. Pinning it to geographic national rate was considered, but discounted because it would mean the numbering plan would be subject to gradual change as tariffs change (and in any case it opened up the argument of who's national tariff...if you say BT's, that implies that BT are driving what other telecoms providers are allowed to charge for calls to 08, and if you say that each individual network can't charge 08 at any price higher than their geo tariff, you end up in the mess that 0870 will soon be, with cheaper providers not collecting enough to pay the termination rate because these are based around BT's retail rates). It was for this reason that the 10ppm breakpoint was chosen.

I fully agree with you that Ofcom should have done more PR about where 08 ends and 09 starts. Having said that, Ivan's correct...you have to be living in some form of vacuum to have missed all of the newspaper articles about prices for calling 0870 numbers.

IvanOpinion

bbb_uk wrote: »

In a perfect world and if it wasn't already too late then that would be great but in the interests of a 'happy medium' (as you state), I've always been of the opinion that if consumers were:-

1. Made fully aware of the costs to these numbers (ie accurate (as far as possible) pricing info
2. the fact that they're excluded from inclusive minutes
3. the fact that revenue sharing takes place (ie the company/gov dept called is most likely earning revenue)

Then that would be a happy medium as far as i'm concerned. All this takes place now on 09x numbers.

But this goes back to my earlier post where I would like to know where exactly people are living if they are not aware that 087X numbers cost more .. there has been masses of press coverage and small print about them. Also any documents I have received about 'free' minutes' make it very clear which numbers are free and which are not (are you saying people sign up for things without reading them .. if that is the case they only have themselves to blame). I also find the 'revenue share' to be a bit of a red herring ... I personally would like to think use of such a number was not a way of BT simply increasing their profits and that there was 'meaning' behind their use.



Ivan

bbb_uk

IvanOpinion wrote: »

But this goes back to my earlier post where I would like to know where exactly people are living if they are not aware that 087X numbers cost more....

I wasn't talking about just the fact that they cost more, I was talking about the fact there should be clearer pricing information about these numbers. Ofcom have even admitted this in a consultation.

Many OCPs website still don't give equal prominence to NTS call charges as they do geographical call charges despite General Condition 14.1 (or is it 14.2) stating they should. This GC was brought in over a year ago now for this very reason but yet few OCP's comply.

I believe now that most people are aware NTS numbers are excluded from inclusive minutes but just how many know about revenue sharing and the fact that 087x is generally used as a stealth premium rate?

You will be surprised just how many people aren't aware of the actual costs (not even from a BT landline) for NTS calls - many still state they're either local or national rate.

Why shouldn't they believe they're not local/national rate when most literature and some OCPs still maintain this lie.

We effectively have two different local rates and national rates. Local/national rates for geographical numbers and local/national rates for 084x/087x numbers.

Take Call08.com which I believe are one of the cheapest for 0800 numbers but yet look at what they state for 0844 numbers:-

0844 numbers allow callers to contact you at a low fixed rate day or night without you having to subsidise the cost of the call. At a maximum of 5p per minute from anywhere in the UK, 0844 numbers are slightly higher than the standard BT local rate but around 3p lower than the national rate for a UK call.

With regards to Call08.com, I don't know if they're deliberately avoiding the truth or that they do really believe that us consumers still pay the very old (non-discounted) rates for national rate calls (ie just less than 8ppm) and from anywhere in the UK which could imply from mobiles as well?!?

pyart

bunking_off wrote: »

But quite often a company's telephone number is part of their brand. Change it outright, and you risk losing parts of your customer base. This is particularly true at the bottom end of the market...all it takes is a customer of a jobbing plumber who has an old business card buried at the bottom of a drawer to ring the old 0870 number that they've changed and that plumber's lost their customer for good.

Yes, that is for good. All companies that now use 0845, 0870 or 0871, should lose their customers for good.
If anyone with any sense was setting up in business right now and wanted to build a customer base, using the above numbers would not be a good start. One would build a customer base and retain it by using 03.
As for the 'small' amounts of revenue raised, it probably pays the wages and running costs of call centres abroad. These companies do not support British jobs.
These numbers are not just called by people who do not read instruction manuals correctly, they are used to try to resolve difficulties, most of which are created by these companies so you have a need to ring and generate income for them. Some people are not able to write and using a phone is the only way they can be heard.
As always, it is probably those with less ability that are cheated by these companies.
Do any of you like paying for parking when road tax already allows us to park free on some streets? How would you feel if the car park attendant left you waiting in the car park for an extra half an hour at your expense before raising the barrior? Wrong isn't it?
There is no difference with the above numbers, we have better things to do than ring them, we do because moreso than not, we are forced to.
Lets support all companies that use 0800,01,02 and 03. Those that want 0845, 0870 and 0871 as part of their brand should maybe have to retain those numbers, so that in the future when new companies that see the way forward emerge, we can watch the others see the merits of GREED.

IvanOpinion

pyart, I think you managed to include nearly every piece of hype and oft repeated myth about the use of 087x numbers in a single post

ivan

IvanOpinion

bbb_uk wrote: »

I wasn't talking about just the fact that they cost more, I was talking about the fact there should be clearer pricing information about these numbers. Ofcom have even admitted this in a consultation.

i have already agreed with you on this .. IF there are situations whereby the costs of such calls is not freely available then that should be clarified ... however every single provider i have used has always been transparent about the cost of such calls, the media has devoted many column inches to this earning them a lot of money .. at some point people do have to take responsibility for what they do. Maybe, as I think we previously discussed, there should be an opening voice message saying 'this call will cost you 7p per minute'.

Maybe if we focussed on achieving that then it would negate all the issues with 087x numbers. They do serve a useful purpose which the glib 'saynoto' never seems to recognise.

how many know about revenue sharing and the fact that 087x is generally used as a stealth premium rate?

sorry but terms like 'revenue sharing' and 'stealth tax' are red herrings. As an analogy, I had to buy a presecription last night (it appears I am one of a reducing minority that still pays for them) ... nowhere was it publicised (in the pharmacy) that it would cost me £6.85 (I think) but yet I do not consider that as 'revenue sharing' or 'stealth tax' .. it is a charge for a service.

You will be surprised just how many people aren't aware of the actual costs (not even from a BT landline) for NTS calls - many still state they're either local or national rate.

Why shouldn't they believe they're not local/national rate when most literature and some OCPs still maintain this lie.

Despite ALL the information included with my phone bill, my line rental bill, on the websites i sign up through, in the media ... at some point people have to stop blaming others for their own stupidity and failure to read the information they receive.

With regards to Call08.com, I don't know if they're deliberately avoiding the truth or that they do really believe that us consumers still pay the very old (non-discounted) rates for national rate calls (ie just less than 8ppm) and from anywhere in the UK which could imply from mobiles as well?!?

A good point, however I am led to believe that there is a significant portion of the population that do still pay charges simply because they have never looked into it .. similarly for people who pay SVR for their mortgage, high interest rates on loans or remain with poorly performing products. Therefore in a comparison what they are saying is a perfectly legal marketing message (otherwise they wcould be taken to court). It is no different to all the other marketing messages that promise us we will be more attractive, smell nicer, get that girl, more intelligent, be less smelly in the loo and our clothes will be whiter than white ... sometimes we actually need to read all the info we are sent ... as a nation have we really become that lazy that we need everything handed to us on a plate, are we no longer capable of cutting through the marketing message, do we actually believe everything we read without questioning it (even when we are bombarded with informaiton to the contrary).

ivan

bbb_uk

IvanOpinion wrote: »

IF there are situations whereby the costs of such calls is not freely available then that should be clarified

I agree but again just look at how many OCP's comply with Ofcom's GC14.1 (or 14.2) whereby they give equal prominence to cost of calls to 08 as they do their geographical calls. BT doesn't comply with this GC last time I looked and in fact only VirginMedia complied. The rest may not show the costs at all or hide them away in a .pdf under "special numbers" term, etc.

at some point people do have to take responsibility for what they do.

I agree here but at same time something needs to be done with communication providers' incorrect use of local/national rate and "from anywhere in the UK" lies.

I think we previously discussed, there should be an opening voice message saying 'this call will cost you 7p per minute'.

This was meant to happen for 0870 but has been put off because it has only occured to Ofcom that home alarm companies use 0870 when they dial out and any voice message may stop any outgoing call. Bear in mind that Ofcom was warned about something similar in a consultation response and the fact that Ofcom, in my opinion, should have sufficient knowledge to realise this beforehand. It basically has taken Ofcom over a year to realise this and it just happens, Ofcom realised this just over a month before the changes to 0870 were to happen.

sorry but terms like 'revenue sharing' and 'stealth tax' are red herrings. As an analogy, I had to buy a presecription last night (it appears I am one of a reducing minority that still pays for them) ... nowhere was it publicised (in the pharmacy) that it would cost me £6.85 (I think) but yet I do not consider that as 'revenue sharing' or 'stealth tax' .. it is a charge for a service.

The charges are generally displayed on the counter itself I've found in the ones I go to.

Despite ALL the information included with my phone bill, my line rental bill, on the websites i sign up through...

With the exception of VM, which other OCPs actually clearly state call costs and don't hide them away in either hard to find places or under other terms like "special numbers", etc for which many ordinary consumers may not realise this.

I am led to believe that there is a significant portion of the population that do still pay charges simply because they have never looked into it

Only a very small minority (ie those on BT Light User Scheme or In-Contact Plus for which BT go out their way to hide these tariffs) actually pay the old 'local' and or old 'national' rate costs. Only at this point for those on these two tariffs, do they pay higher geographical charges around the same price as 0845/0870 numbers.

Therefore in a comparison what they are saying is a perfectly legal marketing message (otherwise they would be taken to court)

Ofcom, ASA, Trading Standards, COI all state local/national rate claims are potentially misleading simply because the majority of consumers pay more for calls to 0845/0870 than they do geographical numbers.

It is no different to all the other marketing messages that promise us we will be more attractive, smell nicer, get that girl, more intelligent, be less smelly in the loo and our clothes will be whiter than white ...

Actually, the ASA are pretty good on stopping misleading things like this lol.

as a nation have we really become that lazy that we need everything handed to us on a plate, are we no longer capable of cutting through the marketing message, do we actually believe everything we read without questioning it (even when we are bombarded with informaiton to the contrary).

That's a hard one because you have telephone companies not being upfront about call costs (I even got charged for a call to an 03x number when it should have been included in my inclusive allowances!!), a lot of ads still have this local/national rate claim or simply don't mention the costs of the call. Very few have followed proper guidance and have stated that calls cost upto x pence per minute from a BT landline. Calls from other landline providers may vary.

In fact, most of the time you see this message it's for calls to 09x but yet in ads (magazines ads are worse for it), many don't display the call costs.

I agree, it's very, very slowly starting to sink in that these so-called local/national calls are more expensive than they claim and this has probably got a lot to do with SayNo otherwise I believe there would be no change at all and consumers would still think the 0845/0870 misleading claims.

Remember, it's taken a good couple of years since the misleading claims about 0845/0870 being local/national rate have been untrue and it's only recently that it's come to light something which companies, etc (especially communication providers) have been trying to avoid

manrow

I can see there are some very entrenched positions on this board, which is preventing fertile debate. Apologies for the arrogance, as I imply that my reply here will be pertinent!

But can we look at this subject from another angle please, and widen the debate?

Many companies now offer telephone services which provide free calls to normal national numbers. Hence any company which offers an 084, or 087 number is now actually incurring a further EXTRA charge for the user, which was probably never envisaged when say the local rate call number was established.

My recommendation now is therefore that all companies should go back to using the previous national numbers UNLESS they wish to make money out of us in which case they can use an 084 or 087 number so we know where we are??!!

Heinz

manrow wrote: »

My recommendation now is therefore that all companies should go back to using the previous national numbers UNLESS they wish to make money out of us in which case they can use an 084 or 087 number so we know where we are??!!

Agreed.

Personally, I've been making that assumption for some time - and, if I can't circumvent such practise, put my business elsewhere.

twoten

According to "Say no to 0870! cut call costs to these hideous numbers" at http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/phones/0870-say-no under the heading The future of 0870's the information says the new controls of charging local and national rates for these numbers instead of the highly inflated rates should come into affect around 1st February 2008.

It also states that Other providers, wanting to charge more, need to make a free announcement at the start of the call".

Have these changes been put in place yet or is there a delay? I haven't seen or heard anything relating to the changes in the media!