The SayNoTo0870 Article Discussion Area

vette_2

Hi Folks,
I don't know if this has already been posted, but I got an email about this site from my sister, so thought I'd better post the URL here. I DID check out that is's a real site, and it seems Kosher!

Be well,

'Vette :-)

https://www.saynoto0870.com

barjam_2

yeah as al mac said its been around a while;) it's best to do a search in the forums 1st to see if its been posted


http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=196836

Heinz

There's a permanent link to Martin's article about the whole 0870 issue in the 'Best Buy Articles' bar just above this thread too. There's a link to the SayNoTo0870 site in that.

lubylwu

Have you seen the petition on the No. 10 website

..."to compel all organizations using non-geographic numbers (e.g. 0845, 087* prefixes) to also publicize an equivalent geographic number (e.g. 01* / 02* prefixes) where they can be reached (and which can usually be called more cheaply than an 0845 / 087* number).

You can "sign" this on line - closes 4 April 2007 - only taks a minute but they do send you an email from which you have to confirm your "signature" - so don't forget to do that to add your name to the list.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/saynoto0870/

hurrah

lubylwu wrote:

Have you seen the petition on the No. 10 website

..."to compel all organizations using non-geographic numbers (e.g. 0845, 087* prefixes) to also publicize an equivalent geographic number (e.g. 01* / 02* prefixes) where they can be reached (and which can usually be called more cheaply than an 0845 / 087* number).

You can "sign" this on line - closes 4 April 2007 - only taks a minute but they do send you an email from which you have to confirm your "signature" - so don't forget to do that to add your name to the list.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/saynoto0870/

It does pay to search before posting.;)

See: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=363977

lubylwu

oooops, sorry.

bbb_uk

bunking_off wrote:

I'm not sure what more is expected of Ofcom, to be honest.

How about proper regulation!

Most Communication Providers (CPs) are selling 084/087 numbers as costing local/national rate only and some even go as far as stating that they cost local/national rate from anywhere in the country.

All this is done to make the 08x numbers more attractive to sell but it is misleading. Any company/organisation, etc that bought one of these 08x numbers on the basis of it only costing their customers (most likely us end consumers) either a local or national rate has been mislead.

This has a knock-on effect with regards to the fact that these companies/organisations, etc then go around telling their customers (us end consumers) that it is only 'local' or 'national' rate. This then means that most consumers are confused as to the cost, etc.

Ofcom could actually force CPs to stop their misleading descriptions as to the cost of these numbers and force them to follow ASA type guidelines as to the proper description of the cost of these numbers.

Also, in April 2006 Ofcom, by way of regulation, made it compulsory that Original Communication Providers (OCPs) had to give equal prominence to the cost of 08x numbers as they do their geographical numbers. This regulation came into force on the 19th August 2006.

We're now in February 2007 and only a very, very small number of OCPs comply with this. The others (BT included) either hide their 08x call charges on hard-to-find areas of their webpage or still don't mention them at all.

All this, I believe, comes down to the fact that Ofcom don't really want to do anything at all.

Admittedly, a different number being used means an end to the "calls cost national rate" confusion around 0870, but this could equally have been done via advertising standards without meaning a lot of companies have to change their number..

ASA only have a limited remit and are doing the best they can but nothing stops the CP/OCPs from purposely still misselling the 084x/087x numbers as local/national rate, as mentioned earlier. This is where Ofcom could force CP/OCPs to stop the misleading price claims instead of just passing it to the ASA under it's limited remit.

Ultimately, in most cases, these numbers are used to gain revenue without consumers knowing about it (i.e. a stealth premium rate number).

I've mentioned this before on Sayno but I'll mention it here:

Take for example you have two competing companies that offer the same products/services but yet one company has a 0871 number costing 10p/min (from a BT landline) and the other company has a 09x number also costing 10p/min. Which of these companies do you think is likely to get more business than the other?

I believe it would be the 0871 for the simple fact is that consumers may not know the cost of the call is 10p/min and the fact that the company is receiving revenue from the call which is ironic because from a consumer point-of-view, the 09x number would be cheaper to ring due to can't keep people waiting on the line ICSTIS rule and still charge them for it.

In my opinion then consumers should know that in most cases 084x/087x are lower priced premium rate (Ofcom has admitted they are a type of premium rate in one of their many consultations) and more importingly that in most cases companies, etc using these numbers are actually receiving revenue from it just like 09x numbers albeit smaller amounts.

Basically, I would like to see a more open and honest approach to the cost and use of these numbers and then ultimately us consumers aren't mislead and can make a more informed decision as to which company is best to deal with.

However, this open and honest approach is not what CP/OCP and companies/organisations, etc want as that would mean possible loss of revenue from these numbers.

bunking_off

OK, I'll declare an interest here. I work in the industry.

However, to answer some of your points;

- OCPs (typically this is taken to mean Originating Communications Provider, incidentally) have no great incentive to move trade onto 08 numbers. As the accounting regime works at the moment - and following the changes to 0870 it is under renegotiation - an OCP makes a higher margin on a geographic call than non-geo such as 08. The reason for this is that on geo call the terminating network charges on a regulated "cost plus" basis and the OCP retains the retail revenue minus this, whereas on a non-geo number the OCP can only retain on a "cost plus" basis, and the terminating network receives "retail minus"...it's this arrangement which facilitates any revenue share deals between the terminating network and the 08 number holder. To put some real numbers on it, depending on the connectivity between BT and the 0870 terminating network, BT's retention on a call to an 0870 number is <0.5ppm peak.

- the terminating network really doesn't care whether the customer takes an 0800, 0845, 0844, 0870, 0871 or 090 number. The profit margin is pretty much the same on all of them, and the only thing that differs is how much/little revenue share the customer gets, indeed whether the customer will have to contribute to the cost of the call. From this perspective, there's no incentive on a terminating CP to sell an 0870 number in preference to an 0871 or an 090 (or indeed to an 0845 or 0800).

- I can't speak for every communications provider, but I know that in my company's marketing material we have not made reference to local / national call rates in years. I cannot act as policeman for what my customers do after I've provided service any more than JJB can ensure that baseball bats they sell aren't used to beat people up versus play sport, so it's unfortunate to say the least when our numbers are depicted as charged at e.g. national rate - where we spot it we tell the customer to guard them from ASA intervention. The industry has its fair share of wide-boys so I wouldn't be surprised to hear about others being misleading. As it happens, most of the big boys haven't been pushing 0870 for sometime because we know we'll have the pain of changing our customers' numbers so have no desire to increase the size of the problem.

- I agree with you about 090 versus 0871. This is one of the reasons why ICSTIS will be assuming responsibility in this area.

Fact is the Ofcom regulation gives you what you want. What you could legitimately complain about isthe length of the transition period that's being given to end revenue share on 0870. However, I know of quite a few companies that are likely to go bankrupt as a result of the regulatory change. Hurrah you might say....and with some justification...but you have to give time for an orderly exit. Also, there are a lot of businesses who have to change their business model or invest considerably in marketing collateral to change their contact numbers. Without a reasonable implementation timeframe Ofcom would inevitably find itself exposed to legal action. Once the arrangements are bottomed out, I don't think many companies will be waiting until the 11th hour to change.

bbb_uk

bunking_off wrote:

I agree with you about 090 versus 0871. This is one of the reasons why ICSTIS will be assuming responsibility in this area.

To be honest the same could be said for 0870 versus 090 now if it was possible to have an 7p/min 090 number (I dont think there is though).

Basically 08x despite being stealth premium rate (albeit smaller than 09x) are not known as premium rate and end consumers in most cases aren't aware of any revenue sharing taking place on these numbers compared to 09x. This is why these numbers are more popular - mostly due to revenue share that can be received on them without end consumers knowing about it.

However, a few companies/gov depts use these numbers for the actual features moreso than the revenue share - those on 0845. I believe anyone on 087x is in for the revenue.

bunking_off wrote:

The industry has its fair share of wide-boys so I wouldn't be surprised to hear about others being misleading.

I checked a lot of CP/OCPs websites (google searches, etc) and nearly all mentioned that 08x were either local or national. NTL/TW do (well did last time I checked) but BT don't. BT even go as far as stating the cost of calls from their network and that rates vary from other networks (standard ASA guidelines)

Fact is the Ofcom regulation gives you what you want.

What I would like to see is an open/honest approach concerning these numbers. Call me stupid but I believe consumers should be aware that when they ring an 08x number, the company/gov department they've called is most likely earning money from the call and that calls don't cost local/national rate.

The problem is this open/honest approach wouldn't be liked by CPs, businesses, etc as they would likely lose customers if their customers knew they were earning money from the call.

What you could legitimately complain about isthe length of the transition period that's being given to end revenue share on 0870. However, I know of quite a few companies that are likely to go bankrupt as a result of the regulatory change.

I find that surprising. They, the companies/gov depts, etc, were given nearly 19months to change over if needed (which most probably will) to alternative 08x revenue streams.

bunking_off

bbb_uk wrote:

I find that surprising. They, the companies/gov depts, etc, were given nearly 19months to change over if needed (which most probably will) to alternative 08x revenue streams.

It's not the companies using 08 who face bankruptcy - as you rightly say they'll move their numbers elsewhere and recover any revenue shortfalls via other avenues.

Similarly, to the ntls, BTs, C&Ws and Thuses of this world, provision of 08 numbers is just another revenue stream...and telcos such as these are more interested in the value add through greater integration with corporate clients and e.g. providing network based IVR systems (the stuff which when badly designed drives you around the bend because you need to select option 1 then 3 then 4...) - there's b*gger all margin in basic 08 services so they're happy to leave these to the pile 'em high outfits.

The companies who may well struggle are those who focus solely on flogging 0870 numbers on the cheap. Can't say I'll shed many tears for these, but there's a fair point about the need for an orderly transition.