being veggie

Volcano

AbFab wrote: »

How much food do we need to feed a cow before it's 'beefed up' enough to feed a human? If humans ate directly from the land, it would drastically reduce the damage to the soil. This is just one link for you, but Google/research it yourself, and there is plenty of evidence to support my comments. www.veganoutreach.org/whyvegan/environment.html

While cutting down rainforests to provide land for grazing immense herds of cattle isn't a sustainable way of operating (and I agree it's not right) I don't see it as a reason to completely abandon all animal products. Beefburgers from some massive Brazilian land clearence yes, but free range eggs from the farm down the road? There's a world of difference.

You are twisting something straight-forward. Let's say both apple and rabbit are in their most fresh state! Fresh for an apple = mmm, yummy, crispy, juicy and nutritious. Fresh for a bunny = alive.

"Most fresh state" is a bit of an abstract (and I guess personal) concept. I would think you mean which has the greater culinary appeal to others? If you want your apple ripe and juicy then I'll have my rabbit in a red wine sauce with roast parsnips. If you deep fried rabbit chunks in batter after lacing them with salt, sugar and MSG, then selling them for £1 a bag then the masses would be falling over themselves (as they do for whatever is in 'chicken nuggets' these days.)

I don't take 'likely' to refer to immediate food poisoning. But if you take the time to read The China Study, it hopefully will provide you with all the facts that you may see this comment as credible.

If I ever get the chance then I'll read it. It won't change the fact that the statement referred to contains gross factual inaccuracies.

AbFab

Volcano wrote: »

While cutting down rainforests to provide land for grazing immense herds of cattle isn't a sustainable way of operating (and I agree it's not right) I don't see it as a reason to completely abandon all animal products. Beefburgers from some massive Brazilian land clearence yes, but free range eggs from the farm down the road? There's a world of difference.

It's a start. It's reason enough to give up beef then?
As for 'free-range' eggs, it's still land that is taken up which could be used directly to feed humans. There's still all the grain fed to these chickens to consider, all the water necessary to farm them, and all the excrement they produce to bear in mind. The run off is polluting our waterways. All the ammonia gas they produce, polluting our air.
Growing crops for humans would be far more sustainable.
Besides, even in a 'free-range' (no agreed definition of that term yet, afaik) setting, the chicks have been selected to ensure that they are female. A vast number of 'useless' male chicks are discarded in this process and go into industrially-prepared foods.
If you get your eggs from the 'free-range' farm down the road, are you as scrupulous about where all your food that contains eggs (shop-bought cakes, biscuits, sauces, pasta etc) comes from too?
There are also strong health reasons for not eating eggs. Eggs are a source of bad saturated fat/cholesterol.
Besides, when I think about what an egg actually is, it grosses me out: no way am I choosing to eat what comes out of some bird's lady bits, thank you.
It is perfectly possible for us to eat a balanced diet that does not include eggs.

Volcano wrote: »

"Most fresh state" is a bit of an abstract (and I guess personal) concept. I would think you mean which has the greater culinary appeal to others? If you want your apple ripe and juicy then I'll have my rabbit in a red wine sauce with roast parsnips. If you deep fried rabbit chunks in batter after lacing them with salt, sugar and MSG, then selling them for £1 a bag then the masses would be falling over themselves (as they do for whatever is in 'chicken nuggets' these days.)

The rabbit is alive. That is your option. You are in a room with a rabbit and an apple, and you are hungry - which do you eat, there and then?

Volcano wrote: »

If I ever get the chance then I'll read it. It won't change the fact that the statement referred to contains gross factual inaccuracies.

Cool. The book is factual. If one is open-minded when reading it, you may also come to agree that meat is actually bad for us, in which case, I think the only argument would be over semantics as to what actually constitutes a poison. Is alcohol a poison? Some would say no, some yes. I feel the same way about meat and dairy.

adouglasmhor

Anyone else have trouble getting the Cauldron Tofu Mince we ordered 6 and only got 2 and our local ASDA doens't have them any more? We really liked it and Chilli isn't the same without it.

EslaDee

clutterydrawer wrote: »

for me the problem is not with eating animals as such, but the way they are farmed and slaughtered, even free range practises etc are not 100% acceptable to me.

I would happily eat a wild shot animal, better than it getting old and infirm and chased to its death by a predator.

After my earlier post i've realised I am a hypocrite too, I went vegan but was using soya milk and margarine, I stopped using these as their packaging is non recyclable whereas the dairy equivalent, is. I dislike putting tons of stuff into landfill as much as I dislike poor treatment of animals. but for some reason i never started eating meat again.

Just a thought, the tubs from Pure spread make really good tubs for keeping stuff in, dried goods, fridgeable stuff and anything for the freezer. Have been thinking about the soya milk cartons and wondered if they could be cut in half and used for planting seeds, although I think our council can re-cycle said cartons. :-)

adouglasmhor

You can recycle the cartons for soya Milk in Glasgow but it's one location, we are using Vitalite as our marge and it has great tubs which recyle along with other plastic containers.

EslaDee

adouglasmhor wrote: »

You can recycle the cartons for soya Milk in Glasgow but it's one location, we are using Vitalite as our marge and it has great tubs which recyle along with other plastic containers.

Do you like Vitalite? I just don`t like the taste of it, but the tubs are nice and it is great that they are recycleable. Fortunately I do find Pure very palatable, and, with trying to be very OS, I am happy to save a little cash by re-using the tubs. :-)

Volcano

AbFab wrote: »

It's a start. It's reason enough to give up beef then?

Certainly agree about beef that comes from these unsustainable sources.

As for 'free-range' eggs, it's still land that is taken up which could be used directly to feed humans. There's still all the grain fed to these chickens to consider, all the water necessary to farm them, and all the excrement they produce to bear in mind. The run off is polluting our waterways. All the ammonia gas they produce, polluting our air.
Growing crops for humans would be far more sustainable.

I don't really think the land argument is that valid in this case. Fertilizer a) production and b) surface water pollution, have major environmental impacts easily comparable to a field full of chickens.

If you get your eggs from the 'free-range' farm down the road, are you as scrupulous about where all your food that contains eggs (shop-bought cakes, biscuits, sauces, pasta etc) comes from too?

No, but as you've said, it's a start

Besides, when I think about what an egg actually is, it grosses me out: no way am I choosing to eat what comes out of some bird's lady bits, thank you.

Personal preference based on "I just don't like it" is entirely understandable and not something I think is debateable.

The rabbit is alive. That is your option. You are in a room with a rabbit and an apple, and you are hungry - which do you eat, there and then?

One is in (a commonly regarded) inedible state, the other isn't. We can prepare the rabbit as earlier and swap the apple for a maggot-infested one. I don't think this example was ever going to work though....

Cool. The book is factual. If one is open-minded when reading it, you may also come to agree that meat is actually bad for us, in which case, I think the only argument would be over semantics as to what actually constitutes a poison. Is alcohol a poison? Some would say no, some yes. I feel the same way about meat and dairy.

Whether something is a poison or not is well established and relates not just to the substance in question but also the dose it's consumed in. A few eggs and a couple of glasses of milk a week are never, ever going to bring them close to being classified as a poison. Compare that with recommended limits for alcohol for instance.

While I'm not interested in arguing about people's 'personal preferences', I do think that sometimes people choose diets based on very little information and almost a 'gut' instinct (excuse the pun) that they're doing the right thing. If not well informed (and Mojisola's post referencing cactuspotty above illustrates a prime example) then their intentions become unfeasible, if not actually damaging to their health: http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020715/story3.html

I'll always believe there's middle ground where you can consume healthy food, in healthy quantities without going to the extent of completely ruling out a particular, nutritious food group(s). There's some awful junk in supermarkets and even a 'half-vegan' diet (no offence meant) would go a long way to offsetting this junk in people's diet.

Joyful25

A really interesting forum...

I became vegan on Jan 1st, from a carnivore, (collect £200, do not pass go), because I felt I wanted to cut out animal products and by-products completely for ethical reasons. I haven't worn leather or suede products for about eight or nine years, and rarely ate anything more animal-based than chicken, fish, cheese and chocolate (I've drunk soya and rice milk for about six years) - I'd say I was a good candidate for taking the leap but couldn't have done it sooner.

I would certainly never judge a vegetarian for not being ve*an, as it's really none of my business. Of course, you want to shake everyone not just veggies and say 'do you have any idea what goes on in the dairy industry?' but if they're informed enough veggies, then they are just making their choice of where the line is drawn.

We have the choice in the Western world to make these decisions; I'm not sure I'd be vegan if I was raised in a remote part of the world (I'm thinking remote Africa, Siberia, etc.). I really think it's a cultural thing and unless more and more cultures are on board, I can't see there being great vegan strides in my lifetime. But then when my nan was my age, who'd have thought the internet would be here!!

On a lighter note, a few of us vegans and veggie-friendly MSavers go on to the forum 'Going vegan....!' so if you're looking for any £-friendly recipes and advice, as well as a few ethical discussions, it would be good to see you on there :cool: xx

Doom_and_Gloom

Volcano wrote: »

Certainly agree about beef that comes from these unsustainable sources.

Basically all animal products come from unsustainable sources. You have to have not only enough land for them to live off of but also enough land to feed said animals.

Volcano wrote: »

I don't really think the land argument is that valid in this case. Fertilizer a) production and b) surface water pollution, have major environmental impacts easily comparable to a field full of chickens.

Animal products do more damage as they are a secondary eating source meaning they have to eat primary food sources just like us. Around 80% of soya grown goes to animal feed for example (probably more) so that is 4 times more destructive just to feed the animal. As you said yourself modern use of fertilizer (if not organic) as well as other pollutents does happen in the primary food source but how do you think these captive animals are kept alive? You then have to take into account the damage these human bred animals make (the numbers of these captive animals are a lot higher than they could possibly be naturally). You could never make anyone with sense believe that it is less destructive to eat a secondary food source than a primary food source.

Volcano wrote: »

Personal preference based on "I just don't like it" is entirely understandable and not something I think is debateable.

It's more than personal preference for some (although the idea of eating a period isn't doing anything for me). Egg consumption of only 100g a day can have a huge impact on someone as they'll have a higher chance of forming breast cancer*. They have also been linked to an increased chance of developing diabetes.

Volcano wrote: »

One is in (a commonly regarded) inedible state, the other isn't. We can prepare the rabbit as earlier and swap the apple for a maggot-infested one. I don't think this example was ever going to work though....

Fresh would be a ripe apple and for a rabbit it would be alive. It's very simple as a decaying corpse can never be fresh. As it is very few people eat meat raw in it's 'fresh' state, the same can not be said for raw vegetables/fruit because most people do eat these in their fresh state.

Volcano wrote: »

Whether something is a poison or not is well established and relates not just to the substance in question but also the dose it's consumed in. A few eggs and a couple of glasses of milk a week are never, ever going to bring them close to being classified as a poison. Compare that with recommended limits for alcohol for instance.

Animal products are carcinogenic. It has been found that the proteins in animal products are able to turn on the processes of certain diseases and that not eating them can turn the processes off. This is how carcinogenic work on the body. A plant based diet is the best for trying to avoid poisoning your body. Alcohol is a poison I agree and so can damage the body rather easily. However animal products in general are the problem and you will find that most omnivourse consume a lot of their caloric intake by animal products. This makes animal products in general worse.

Volcano wrote: »

While I'm not interested in arguing about people's 'personal preferences', I do think that sometimes people choose diets based on very little information and almost a 'gut' instinct (excuse the pun) that they're doing the right thing. If not well informed (and Mojisola's post referencing cactuspotty above illustrates a prime example) then their intentions become unfeasible, if not actually damaging to their health: http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020715/story3.html

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.html?p=24768733&postcount=46 is in responce to your link. Your link by the way was from 2002 and the information in my link is a lot more recent. People have many misconception because the government pay subsidies to farms for the animal products. If they don't sell then the government lose money and therefore so does the country. Not suprising they don't want people to realise that vegetarianism and veganism is better for them.

Volcano wrote: »

I'll always believe there's middle ground where you can consume healthy food, in healthy quantities without going to the extent of completely ruling out a particular, nutritious food group(s). There's some awful junk in supermarkets and even a 'half-vegan' diet (no offence meant) would go a long way to offsetting this junk in people's diet.

Studies have shown how eating even a little amount of animal products can cause harm. People don't like this but it is true. Many people have tried to dissmiss it but the studies have been in such depth that it is impossible to ignore. People just don't like to change. The fact is that these people saying 'it tastes good so I'm not giving it up' or simular are more likely to die from diseases as they have a higher chance of developing them than people who don't eat it.


*China Study

want2bmortgage3

I have been thinking about why vegans consume soya products. Such as milk and spreads. What about all the processing involved, factories, pollution to turn the soya beans into other products? Also why would you want to replicate a products originally made from animal sources? Why not just include a small amount of soya beans in the diet, in the same way you would eat other beans/pulses?

Also slightly different subject, I am trying to buy only organic dairy products which after my first shop is going to be difficult, and more expensive. Milk was easy enough but I have to now consider yoghurts, butter, cheese, and so on.... then I start to notice all the products which contain milk, eggs etc and realise they are probably 99% non organic and not free range (unless stated) and I realise I've really got to start making things myself. For example own brand quiche.. no mention of free range eggs..