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being veggie

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  • Does organic make a difference to the animal's welfare? (genuine question!)
    "I don't want to make money, I just want to be wonderful."

    :rotfl:
  • Fire_Fox
    Fire_Fox Posts: 26,026 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    Also slightly different subject, I am trying to buy only organic dairy products which after my first shop is going to be difficult, and more expensive. Milk was easy enough but I have to now consider yoghurts, butter, cheese, and so on.... then I start to notice all the products which contain milk, eggs etc and realise they are probably 99% non organic and not free range (unless stated) and I realise I've really got to start making things myself. For example own brand quiche.. no mention of free range eggs..

    You will either need to shop in Marks and Spencer (only use free range eggs), purchase an organic quiche from your usual supermarket, go Old Style and cook from scratch or acquaint yourself with a few 'proper' health food stores/ farmers markets/ high end farm shops in your area.

    Unfortunately many of the more ethical options are not compatible with an MSE lifestyle - I've had to drop from organic eggs in cardboard boxes (recyclable) to free range in plastic packs. :rolleyes: I now buy the 15 eggs for £2 packs from Tesco or Asda.

    I'd rather give up eggs than buy battery tho, like you, I am aware there are battery eggs in other products I purchase. :mad: I still feel what I am doing helps send a message to the supermarkets - even in a recession people are making ethical choices.
    Declutterbug-in-progress.⭐️⭐️⭐️ ⭐️⭐️
  • Fire_Fox
    Fire_Fox Posts: 26,026 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    Declutterbug-in-progress.⭐️⭐️⭐️ ⭐️⭐️
  • Fire_Fox
    Fire_Fox Posts: 26,026 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    I haven't yet read the China Study, so I went to look at the promotional website. The first thing that struck me was the publishing house - BenBella books ... why not a more respected publishing house? Perhaps because some of his peers think the book contains leaps of faith and a selective approach to referencing:
    http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html

    I rather suspect the book does contain some valuable research but it is dangerous to read commercial nutrition texts such as this in isolation. This book looks to be a presentation of the author's dietetic theory and not the rigorous peer-reviewed meta analysis that should be cited in arguments.
    Declutterbug-in-progress.⭐️⭐️⭐️ ⭐️⭐️
  • mech_2
    mech_2 Posts: 620 Forumite
    I have been thinking about why vegans consume soya products. Such as milk and spreads. What about all the processing involved, factories, pollution to turn the soya beans into other products? Also why would you want to replicate a products originally made from animal sources?
    I think it's in order to fit in with a more conventional diet usually. Most people have limited imagination and entrenched habits when it comes to diet. I mean what else are you going to put on cornflakes? :-) Mock animal products take some of the effort out of changing.

    Plus they make you look like a bit less of an oddball at a barbeque.

    Why not just include a small amount of soya beans in the diet, in the same way you would eat other beans/pulses?
    You can buy whole soya beans in the supermarket. I don't tend to buy them, but I have seen them in Tesco before.

    But again, most people are used to having something in their meal which isn't obviously veg. Eating veg with another item of veg just doesn't seem to sit well with people who are used to including some meat in their meals.
  • thanks mech, i agree, for a while i started eating these mock-meat/dairy products until it dawned on me what they actually are made of - processed soya beans. wouldnt it be better to make a 3-bean chili or something and use the beans in their natural state?

    i guess quorn is a better option but still i've heard a lot of negative things about it and how highly processed it is and again it isnt part of the diet humans have evolved on.
  • Volcano
    Volcano Posts: 1,116 Forumite
    Basically all animal products come from unsustainable sources........ You could never make anyone with sense believe that it is less destructive to eat a secondary food source than a primary food source.

    Goats reared on unfarmable land? Chickens reared on the same?
    Egg consumption of only 100g a day can have a huge impact on someone as they'll have a higher chance of forming breast cancer*. They have also been linked to an increased chance of developing diabetes.

    Only? I think 2 eggs a day, every day, might be regarded as excessive by most and not a balanced diet.
    Fresh would be a ripe apple and for a rabbit it would be alive. It's very simple as a decaying corpse can never be fresh.

    Like I said, it's not a good example as the apple is decaying too. With your comment about eggs being 'periods' and the above, there's kind of an attempt to anthropomorphosise animals here that really isn't necessary. I'm quite happy to have an adult discussion about this and hopefully learn something along the way, but I'm not here to insult vegans or vegetarians or 'troll'. In return, please don't insult my intelligence by taking an extremist stance as you might for self-styled 'carnivores' who may have riled you in the past.
    Animal products are carcinogenic. It has been found that the proteins in animal products are able to turn on the processes of certain diseases and that not eating them can turn the processes off. This is how carcinogenic work on the body. A plant based diet is the best for trying to avoid poisoning your body. Alcohol is a poison I agree and so can damage the body rather easily. However animal products in general are the problem...

    You're confusing 'poisons' and 'carcinogens' here. They're very different things.

    Studies have shown how eating even a little amount of animal products can cause harm. People don't like this but it is true. Many people have tried to dissmiss it but the studies have been in such depth that it is impossible to ignore.

    I'd be quite interested to see these studies for myself.
  • Doom_and_Gloom
    Doom_and_Gloom Posts: 4,750 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    edited 19 September 2009 at 8:09PM
    Fire_Fox wrote: »
    I haven't yet read the China Study, so I went to look at the promotional website. The first thing that struck me was the publishing house - BenBella books ... why not a more respected publishing house? Perhaps because some of his peers think the book contains leaps of faith and a selective approach to referencing:
    http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html

    I rather suspect the book does contain some valuable research but it is dangerous to read commercial nutrition texts such as this in isolation. This book looks to be a presentation of the author's dietetic theory and not the rigorous peer-reviewed meta analysis that should be cited in arguments.
    Just for your information the writer of the book used to eat an omnivorous diet (note Volcano it's omnivorous diet not carnivorous) and even used to be a part of the farming industry. However the more information he found from his research the more he couldn't justify the eating of certain things. In other words science proved that a plant based diet is best for optimal health. No other study has ever been as vast as this or over the amount of years (it still continues!) that this one has. The amount of this they studied and the amount of people that took part is how they managed to prove all this with very little doubt.

    The reason however that it was probably published by BenBella is due to it being independent. All non-independent publishers would have a hard time with the government for such a book as they basically own the farming industries as they pay for a hefty part of it. The last thing they want is something coming out that makes people realise the truth. Indepenedent publications are interested in just that with books like this.

    Many researchers are kept quiet by government when things like this are found out (after all who gives out most of the grants!) or are made to look like fools. The problem they have had with this book is that the information that has taken several decades to obtain is almost full proof. It doesn't just use the aurthors research but also that of other peoples who the masses tried to kick aside (sp?) because it went against the norm. The fact is that most people don't like changing even when the reasons in cold hard facts are infront of them. It is one of the biggest flaws of human kinds.
    I am a vegan woman. My OH is a lovely omni guy :D
  • Doom_and_Gloom
    Doom_and_Gloom Posts: 4,750 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    edited 19 September 2009 at 8:34PM
    Volcano wrote: »
    Goats reared on unfarmable land? Chickens reared on the same?
    I don't believe that as much land that is said is to be unfarmable. The japanese certainly manage to grow foods on what us westeners would cast away as unfarmable. However modern farming means that these goats and chickens would be captive. Any captive animal for food is destructive. The only reason I said basically all is due to going out hunting yourself - just like my partner (fiance) will be doing for rabit very soon.
    Volcano wrote: »
    Only? I think 2 eggs a day, every day, might be regarded as excessive by most and not a balanced diet.
    You forget how egg is in alot of things people eat. It doesn't mean directly as a whole egg. Think about what you eat over the day and if you were to look at the packaging or realise that it does contain egg you will see that this is rather possible.
    Volcano wrote: »
    Like I said, it's not a good example as the apple is decaying too. With your comment about eggs being 'periods' and the above, there's kind of an attempt to anthropomorphosise animals here that really isn't necessary. I'm quite happy to have an adult discussion about this and hopefully learn something along the way, but I'm not here to insult vegans or vegetarians or 'troll'. In return, please don't insult my intelligence by taking an extremist stance as you might for self-styled 'carnivores' who may have riled you in the past.
    Sorry but they are periods. They are an egg in the reproductive cycle that is a potential chick. If it is not fertilised that makes it redundant and as such a period. I'm not a troll as you try and state I'm just trying to show it as it is. No sugar coating real life here. By the way I have no problems with omnivours that realise what they are doing and what they are eating but when they try and say that isn't the case that's not good. I've already made it obvious that my partner is an omnivour - as many people already know on here. I'm not exactly insulting your intelligence but I am showing how miss-guided you are when it comes to things in front of peoples faces (not just yours though).
    Volcano wrote: »
    You're confusing 'poisons' and 'carcinogens' here. They're very different things.
    "Carcinogens are considered a special class of chronic poisons" - so no I'm not confusing anything. They are in all sense and purpous poisons. They work in the exact same way in the body it's just some work faster, some work only on certain prts of the body etc.
    Volcano wrote: »
    I'd be quite interested to see these studies for myself.
    It's quite easy to find them. The China Study at the moment is personally my favourite, however there are more studies out there in books, the net etc that you could easily read. It's not my job to show you. If you really want to know you'll find them. As I've said though people don't in general like to find out what they are doing is 'bad' for them and would rather not look into it, dismiss it etc.
    I am a vegan woman. My OH is a lovely omni guy :D
  • Volcano
    Volcano Posts: 1,116 Forumite
    (note Volcano it's omnivorous diet not carnivorous)

    ?????
    In other words science proved that a plant based diet is best for optimal health.

    Even the author of the book disagrees with you: "It provided an exceptionally large number of hypothetical associations (shown as statistically assessed correlations) that may indicate but does not prove cause and effect relationships."
    http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/campbell_china_response.htm

    Many researchers are kept quiet by government when things like this are found out

    Any discussion that retreats to an area where "it's all a conspiracy" is on shaky ground, as it's impossible to prove it one way or another. I think that as this researcher wasn't kept quiet by the government then that's quite a good indication that there's not a conspiracy here.
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