School Uniform !

poet123

PolishBigSpender wrote: »

Are you still preaching the old 'PolishBigSpender is not Polish' line? I thought we established quite a while ago that your idiotic assumption was just that - idiotic.



I don't dispute this. But there are ways of maintaining standards without resorting to humiliating 'uniform checks' or arcane rules about what a uniform should be - indeed, if you set the standards at something that cannot be abused and is practical and sensible, you'll find that people will keep up the standards willingly.

The problem as far as I can tell is that schools in the UK often over-emphasise such small aspects as uniform, at the expense of actually encouraging people to grow as individuals. I don't believe that a uniform gives anyone the ability to think and act as an individual - certainly, uniforms do nothing but encourage people to think and act in a certain way.

I disagree, and as I do work in education, and am a school Governor i feel that I have more idea than you may have on this issue.

Certainly, the mentality of many 'uniformed' individuals in the UK is nothing short of stone age in character.

School uniform, and "uniformed indivuals" are not the same animal.



And rules should be challenged thus, and peer reviewed in order to ensure their satisfaction. These rules shouldn't be made by head teachers who learnt their trade from Victorian-era teachers, but rather should be made in conjunction with all parties - parents, teachers and children. Only then can they be respected.

Parents are involved in consultation re uniforms, most adhere to the codes, and actively support the wearing of uniform. The minority do not rock the boat till they are sure of a place at a good school, then their"principles" surface. Hypocritical.

Again, I'll refer you to Summerhill School - which is universally regarded as a success story throughout the world. If they, along with many progressive schools such as the Steiner schools can achieve very high standards for children despite not placing a huge emphasis on RULES - where are the State schools going wrong?

They are a niche market, and educate very few children in the overall scheme of things.



The vast majority will go onto some form of FE - be it high school or otherwise. HE is also attended by a vast amount of people - my city alone has 30,000 students! But the only barrier here to study is your own achievement - indeed, many of the tricks that UK schools pull to avoid taking in 'undesirable' children are explicitly banned here.



Is there realistically any way of measuring this?

I assume there are stats which show this.


I don't despise the UK. If I didn't, I wouldn't have a British partner, would I?

It oozes from your posts, perhaps it is not intentional, but it is there.

I despise the UK's attitude towards its youth and its citizens. People are treated like idiots in the UK - witness the endless health and safety laws, the over prescriptive curriculum in schools, the constant interfering in the individual's private life and so on.

I do have some sympathy with some of these views,but not all.



Standards can be instilled in the young where they are logical and aren't designed to breed resentment. What's the point in a teacher spending a well deserved break period checking uniforms of school children? It achieves nothing and simply breeds resentment in the child - time is wasted by both parties, and it achieves absolutely nothing.

It shows a child that if a school has a uniform rule, it must be followed, it shows consistency.

The wearing of uniform is to achieve one thing, and one thing only - conformity. This is the one reason why Asia will always lag behind the West when it comes to innovation and development, as they plainly lack the ability to truly think 'outside the box'. If the UK insists on going further and further down the authortarian path, then you'll find many more jobs being exported to Poland.

You have no idea of the thinking behind or the rationale for the wearing of uniform



The generation of children going through school now in the UK are in grave danger of growing up to be emotionally !!!!!!. It's actually terrifying to look at how many children are prevented from doing anything dangerous, how health and safety issues are preventing many trips, how the society in general is in grave danger of their children walking straight into a conformist, obedient culture. It's not a desirable quality for any race to have - and I suspect the British Empire wasn't built on the back of obedience and conformity.

It was built on team playing, community spirit, familial groups, a sense of belonging.....all of which are fostered by the unifominty afforded by a common bond, namely uniform.



You are claiming that you are well adjusted, yet you feel the need to retaliate? Reminds me of the excuse used by my former neighbour in the UK, who felt the need to smack his wife in the face repeatedly because she slapped him.

You are not retaliating, or responding to me ?



All I have to say on the matter is that the UK should be looking at just why they consistently come at the bottom or near the bottom of the child well being tables. Clearly over emphasis on uniform does not contribute to a happy society.

Another example of the way you despise our society.

black_paw

o' dear seems like a war going on here. better be off

Wench

*Steps in quietly*

Thank-you for all your helpful suggestion's, I honestly had no clue that this was such a senstive subject..

*backs out of thread before being noticed*

Hehe

AnxiousMum

Good to see you back Wench - it just seems that some are ready for an argument, anywhere, anytime.....and it appears, any subject will do the trick for them!

Oldernotwiser

I think that this has blown up completely out of proportion as there's been far more agreement on the subject than the opposite.

This thread illustrates perfectly how trolling puts members at each others' throats, particularly when it's done with a certain degree of subtlety.

Congratulations PBS!

pupsicola

My sons school (not secondary, so not sure how the rules change) tried to insist the whole uniform had to be purchased from them with the logo on everything. I am also not in a position to spend a fortune. I bought the school jumper, pe-kit bag and pe t-shirt and the rest I bought elsewhere. There was no way on earth I was paying £7.50 for one polo shirt when you can buy five perfectly good plain white ones in Asda for a fiver.

Every parent I know did the same, no one has ever said a word. He always looks smart.

Speak with the head and explain that you cant afford to do it the way they are insisting you do. They cant suspend him or make life difficult for you if you are up-front andf honest with them.

Sarah

Sarah

poet123

I dont think anyone could disagree with someone doing the best they can afford to do, and actually no one has done that. That was never at issue on this thread. The whole thing was really about those parents (probably only one of whom has posted here) who refuse to co operate for the sake of it, not from a financial pov. The rest of it escalated because another poster took exception to other options being pointed out, and then we have PBS......

I am mother, and someone involved in education, and rose to the bait when a generation of our kids was rubbished by PBS. Maybe I shouldnt have, but I see lots of wonderful kids on a daily basis, yes, we have our issues, but not all kids behave in the manner PBS suggested, or are the unhappy neurotics PBS would have us believe, and very many of them do emerge from their teenage years as well adjusted, productive members of society.

I would not dream of condemning the youth of Poland as she/he did because it would not be polite, and because I know little about them, nor would I assume that a time spent in Poland would qualify me to go on such a rant fest.

PBS clearly does not worlk within the same confines.

PolishBigSpender

poet123 wrote:

I disagree, and as I do work in education, and am a school Governor i feel that I have more idea than you may have on this issue.

You're free to disagree. But as far as I've gathered from talking to people in the UK, school governors are often completely out of touch with the reality of the issues facing children. The more effective ones will act on behalf of the clients (the children) - but the worst ones very often will repeat the same old tired views that bad teachers will express.

I have a keen interest in education, and the shocking differences in child welfare between the UK and Poland is dreadfully apparent. Our schools educate children - whereas I get the distinct feeling that UK schools still haven't shaken off their Victorian ideals of being there to mould a child away from the nasty influence of the parents.

School uniform, and "uniformed indivuals" are not the same animal.

A uniform represents obedience. Is that a desirable quality in children? I would beg to differ - anyone who relies on obedience to get the most out of a child is quite frankly a bad parent or educator.

I assume there are stats which show this.

You're welcome to try and find such stats to back up your idiotic, ill-educated assumption that Britain is somehow superior. I mean, if you ask any Roman Catholic throughout the world, they'll tell you that John Paul II was one of the most influential people in their lives. Certainly more influential than any British person, that's for sure.

It shows a child that if a school has a uniform rule, it must be followed, it shows consistency.

And this is where you're showing yourself to be dreadfully out of touch. Break periods are for teachers and children to relax away from the pressures of studying - they aren't for doing frankly pointless uniform checks, or any other activity which detracts from the point of having a rest from studying.

In my place of employment, we have mandatory break periods after every 4 hours work. Why? It's because all the studies will show you that a well-rested worker is a more productive worker.

You have no idea of the thinking behind or the rationale for the wearing of uniform

I still haven't found one justification for why Britain still insists stubbornly on school uniform when the vast majority of the world manages to do fine without it. Are British schoolchildren performing better than American, French or German schoolchildren? Nope...didn't think so.

It was built on team playing, community spirit, familial groups, a sense of belonging.....all of which are fostered by the unifominty afforded by a common bond, namely uniform.

As far as I gather, the vast majority was built upon using force. The parts that weren't built by force were often built by bribery. There was certainly nothing 'honourable' about the expansion of the British Empire.

Another example of the way you despise our society.

Perhaps, as a school governor, you might like to consider why the UK is consistently bottom or near the bottom of these 'league tables'. Instead of trying to enforce draconian rules, perhaps allowing children to be children could help?

But of course, bad educators could never allow children to be that. God forbid, there are tests to be done!

and rose to the bait when a generation of our kids was rubbished by PBS.

I'm not rubbishing the current generation of children. I'm rubbishing the way that the current generation of adults is choosing to educate them - with ever more fines, pettiness and absurd policies designed to stifle the life out of childhood. The children don't have a choice - but the adults do.

I must admit to being rather amused when reading a policy document about 'play' - the fact that people are actually employed to consult the Government on 'play' strikes me as being thoroughly bizzare. The strangest thing of all was that it actually went into detail about how children should play, completely missing the point that the experience is for the child to invent and develop.

poet123

PolishBigSpender wrote: »

You're free to disagree. But as far as I've gathered from talking to people in the UK, school governors are often completely out of touch with the reality of the issues facing children. The more effective ones will act on behalf of the clients (the children) - but the worst ones very often will repeat the same old tired views that bad teachers will express.

I assure you I am not out of touch, nor backward thinking , nor draconian, nor any of the other derogatory adjectives you may care to throw at me. I am a Governor in one of the top performing schools in the UK, our kids are happy and healthy, enquiring and informed. Wherever we go we are complimented on both the behaviour and the common sense of our kids, and on their personalities. So contrary to your school of thought is is perfectly possible to produce happy healthy kids who wear uniform:D

I have a keen interest in education, and the shocking differences in child welfare between the UK and Poland is dreadfully apparent. Our schools educate children - whereas I get the distinct feeling that UK schools still haven't shaken off their Victorian ideals of being there to mould a child away from the nasty influence of the parents.


You are clearly visiting the wrong schools, or not enough of them to get a represative sample. Similarly your feeling is wrong, we strive to produce kids who enquire, they are our future.



A uniform represents obedience. Is that a desirable quality in children? I would beg to differ - anyone who relies on obedience to get the most out of a child is quite frankly a bad parent or educator.


A uniform may represent obedience to you, that is your negative connotation, and possibly is a result of your political and social background. In the UK it represents tradition, community spirit, a common ground, belonging and a level playing field for all (no designer labels needed).



You're welcome to try and find such stats to back up your idiotic, ill-educated assumption that Britain is somehow superior. I mean, if you ask any Roman Catholic throughout the world, they'll tell you that John Paul II was one of the most influential people in their lives. Certainly more influential than any British person, that's for sure.


I am RC, and do not dispute that particular comment, that he was Polish was incidental, we have a German Pope now, he will be just as influential to many. I did not say Britain is superior, again your background is raising it's head, just that Britain has produced more influential leaders in more spheres.



And this is where you're showing yourself to be dreadfully out of touch. Break periods are for teachers and children to relax away from the pressures of studying - they aren't for doing frankly pointless uniform checks, or any other activity which detracts from the point of having a rest from studying.

Break periods, are just that. In my experience (which is considerable) uniform check is done at Assembly or Registration. So, in fact it is you who areout of touch, and also you who are imposing your own ideas of how and when, and how draconian such checks are.

In my place of employment, we have mandatory break periods after every 4 hours work. Why? It's because all the studies will show you that a well-rested worker is a more productive worker.

I agree,.....and your point is? and its relevance is?



I still haven't found one justification for why Britain still insists stubbornly on school uniform when the vast majority of the world manages to do fine without it. Are British schoolchildren performing better than American, French or German schoolchildren? Nope...didn't think so.

Fortunately we are not waiting with bated breath for you to find justification, we just get on with it. So your contention is that uniform is the arbitor of performance?, clearly that is your belief, as you mention it in relation to that issue. I have never done so, my pov is that it relates to standards, belonging, community, tradition et al, and these in turn lead to high achievements. You cannot look at anything in isolation, society is very different all over the worls and is a contributory factor to educational results and excellence.



As far as I gather, the vast majority was built upon using force. The parts that weren't built by force were often built by bribery. There was certainly nothing 'honourable' about the expansion of the British Empire.

Again, your point is?.....other than to insult Britian and the British?



Perhaps, as a school governor, you might like to consider why the UK is consistently bottom or near the bottom of these 'league tables'. Instead of trying to enforce draconian rules, perhaps allowing children to be children could help?

Strange how you constantly refer to league tables but then in the next breath rubbish the academic ones. Hardly consistent?

But of course, bad educators could never allow children to be that. God forbid, there are tests to be done!

I'm not rubbishing the current generation of children. I'm rubbishing the way that the current generation of adults is choosing to educate them - with ever more fines, pettiness and absurd policies designed to stifle the life out of childhood. The children don't have a choice - but the adults do.

I must admit to being rather amused when reading a policy document about 'play' - the fact that people are actually employed to consult the Government on 'play' strikes me as being thoroughly bizzare. The strangest thing of all was that it actually went into detail about how children should play, completely missing the point that the experience is for the child to invent and develop.

There are points which which I agree with, but overall I find your comments simplistic, insulting, ignorant of the face of UK education in many areas, and designed to score points for your own agenda.

thorsoak

PolishBigSpender wrote: »

You're free to disagree. But as far as I've gathered from talking to people in the UK, school governors are often completely out of touch with the reality of the issues facing children. The more effective ones will act on behalf of the clients (the children) - but the worst ones very often will repeat the same old tired views that bad teachers will express.

I have a keen interest in education, and the shocking differences in child welfare between the UK and Poland is dreadfully apparent. Our schools educate children - whereas I get the distinct feeling that UK schools still haven't shaken off their Victorian ideals of being there to mould a child away from the nasty influence of the parents.

Might I enquire, PolishBigSpender, if you intend to return to Poland if and when you have children in education?

Your comments about school governors is completely off the mark - might I suggest that if you feel so strongly that they do nothing that you volunteer your services as a school governor? All schools, from pre-school nurseries upwards, have governors and education authorities welcome new applicants from all walks of life to encourage diversity.