School Uniform !

Oldernotwiser

mumps wrote: »

My teenage daughter wore a clean blouse every day, she went to school FIVE days a week (is there some new convention that numbers are typed in capitals?) I don't propose to justify the way I organise my laundry to you. QUOTE]

Everybody makes their own choices on things like this but to choose to do so and then complain about the cost seems a bit daft.

mumps

poet123 wrote: »

What you see as bullying and intimidation,(a ridiculous comment imo) I and many others see as preserving standards and zero tolerance.

I think you have been needlessly rude to Polishbigspender. In fact I think several posters on here have been unpleasant. I have always been a supporter of school uniform but to be honest with the way people on here have attacked parents who object to over priced uniforms (and I don't think anyone has said they disagree with uniforms) I am beginning to think I would rather side with people who are anti uniform.

Chivers1977 has given an excellent example of a silly requirement that costs a lot of money.

From people being talked down to about dental treatment, sharing personal information, how I arrange my laundry? Assumptions about people's attitudes to education I think it is probably time this rather nasty thread was closed.

Apologies to OP, I think you asked a reasonable question and deserved more support. I am pleased you have managed to sort out some reasonable uniform. Best wishes to your daughter, i hope her time at school in fruitful.

Oldernotwiser

mumps wrote: »

I think you have been needlessly rude to Polishbigspender. In fact I think several posters on here have been unpleasant.

.

Considering that on most other boards Polishbigspender is generally considered to be a troll and about as Polish as you or I, comments have been quite civil!

Even assuming that s/he is genuine, did you actually read what s/he said about education in the UK? Poet's remarks were remarkable restrained in the circumstances.

poet123

PolishBigSpender wrote: »

[/B]The very fact that you place 'standards' above childrens wellbeing says a lot about where your priorities are. The fact that you even mention 'standards being maintained' suggests that you actually have no idea about alternative, progressive ideas which in practice prove to be far more successful.

School uniform is a product of a bygone era.

You have no idea about me or what my order of priorities are. You seem to be suggesting that standards, well being and achievement cannot co exist. They can


[/B]That would be why other people ????

As for 'moving in the wrong circles' - you can't get much more professional than biological research, can you? My circles were of highly educated people - and many of these people are very quick to condemn the UK's 'MUST TEST' approach.

Biological research into HR?. We are not discussing testing, but the wearing of uniform.

You may have a very idealistic view of the environment in which your children were taught - but the fact that you demand that standards should be maintained suggests that you place standards and achievement above a sense of worth - which is something that every child should have.

Again, it is perfectly possible to produce well rounded, high achievers,who also have standards, and a sense of self worth. It does not suggest a well rounded personality if the requirement for school uniform is such an onerous and upsetting issue. Where do you draw the line?, any issue or rule could be deemed thus by any child or parent.

Schools need rules, kids and parents need to follow rules. Preparation for life and the rules of society.



Education is more accessible? That would be why England demands fees of over 3,000 pounds a year to study at university? In Poland, all full time education is free. Many part time studies are also subisidised regardless of financial circumstances. But we believe in education as being to educate people - not to achieve numbers in a league table.

So are you saying that higher numbers of Polish children go onto FE and HE than in the UK?, or do higher numbers need to leave full time education to gain work?

[/B]

I could name many, many more. I chose those ones because anyone with a halfway decent education and interest in the world should know a thousand facts about each of them.

So per capita, Poland has produced more world leaders/artists/scientists than Britain?



[/B]You might have missed the part with your excellent education that Poland was under communism for 44 years. Communism tends to ruin things for countries, in case you weren't aware of just how it works.

Economic migration is a simple fact of salaries being higher elsewhere. The fact that British people were cleaning the streets of Dublin or working on Irish construction sites is exactly the same thing.

Or HR people coming to live and work in a country they quite obviously despise?



[/B]'Preserving standards' and 'zero tolerance'. These are children! They shouldn't be subjected to such nonsense at such an age, when they should be learning and growing as individuals. Let them make mistakes, rather than punishing them for the slightest misdeed - after all, how can someone learn if they're not allowed to make mistakes?

Zero tolerance and preserving standards is fine and well when we talk about crime. But we're talking about schoolchildren!

Standards need to be instilled into the young and they will carry them through life. It is parents who provide the uniform, and they who either give a good or bad example in many other areas. The issue of mistakes is not relevant, a straw man included to fudge the real nub of the matter.


If there are rules in place, and you accept a place at such a school, then you need to adhere to those rules, if you don't then it is not a mistake but a deliberate action. Nor are we talking about schoolchidren, parents buy and maintain uniform. The wearing of uniform, is perfectly compatible with all the attributes you desire in a child to produce a well rounded adult.

mumps

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

Considering that on most other boards Polishbigspender is generally considered to be a troll and about as Polish as you or I, comments have been quite civil!

Even assuming that s/he is genuine, did you actually read what s/he said about education in the UK? Poet's remarks were remarkable restained in the circumstances.

And the rudeness to mother who exercised her rights not to share information? The rude reply to OP which was removed? There are many more that could be quoted in this thread.

And in reply to your comments about my daft complaint about costs because I choose to do my washing in a way that suits my family, if I chose to do my washing in a way you approve of I would object to paying £26 for two blouses when I could buy two for £8.

I begin to understand the warnings about children being bullied. I guess they do what they see.

I have never seen so many patronising posts. I am going back to DFW where people are ALOT nicer to each other. (Another new convention about capital letters.)

poet123

mumps wrote: »

I think you have been needlessly rude to Polishbigspender. In fact I think several posters on here have been unpleasant. I have always been a supporter of school uniform but to be honest with the way people on here have attacked parents who object to over priced uniforms (and I don't think anyone has said they disagree with uniforms) I am beginning to think I would rather side with people who are anti uniform.

Chivers1977 has given an excellent example of a silly requirement that costs a lot of money.

From people being talked down to about dental treatment, sharing personal information, how I arrange my laundry? Assumptions about people's attitudes to education I think it is probably time this rather nasty thread was closed.

Apologies to OP, I think you asked a reasonable question and deserved more support. I am pleased you have managed to sort out some reasonable uniform. Best wishes to your daughter, i hope her time at school in fruitful.

I do have issues with those who choose to live and work in the UK, profit from our economy, use our services and yet quite obviously despise us as a people. Those are your children and mine, and many of my students Polishbig spender is deriding. I accept we have educational issues,but will not sit back and see a generation of kids all tarred with the same brush used by PBS.

My kids, and obviously yours do not fall into that category. PBS has taken this and very many other opportunities to rubbish them and us, and will have to accept those of us who choose to retaliate.

With regard to your laundry, the point was only raised because you stated your daughter needed 5 blouses for school at such great cost. Most other people would simply buy 2/3 and wash more regularly. Pointing that out is not nasty, just a general observation that there is another route rather than paying for 5 blouses.

I am in general agreement with you (as I stated earlier in the thread) my issue was with the poster who could afford logos on the uniform but chose not to. I assume you agree with her and her actions? otherwise we are in total agreement on the issue. Which given your comments re nastiness does not seem to be the case.

mumps

poet123 wrote: »

I do have issues with those who choose to live and work in the UK, profit from our economy, use our services and yet quite obviously despise us a s a people. Those are your children and mine, and many of my students Polishbig spender is deriding. I accept we have educational issues,but will not sit back and see a generation of kids all tarred with the same brush used by PBS.

My kids, and obviously yours do not fall into that category. PBS has taken this and very many other opportunities to rubbish them and us, and will have to accept those of us who choose to retaliate.

With regard to your laundry, the point was only raised because you stated your daughter needed 5 blouses for school at such great cost. Most other people would simply buy 2/3 and wash more regularly. Pointing that out is not nasty, just a general observation that there is another route rather than paying for 5 blouses.

I am in general agreement with you (as I stated earlier in the thread) my issue was with the poster who could afford logos on the uniform but chose not to. I assume you agree with her and her actions? otherwise we are in total agreement on the issue. Which given your comments re nastiness does not seem to be the case.

If you look to the left you will probably see Forum Etiuette it states:
Pls be nice to all MoneySavers. There's no such thing as a stupid question, and even if you disagree courtesy helps.
Do you really think all the responses to the OP fitted with that?
I believe Polishbigspender has stated that they are in Poland, but in principle if people are living, working and paying taxes in this country they have a right to have an opinion.
One of the big problems with uniform is that if those who can afford over priced uniform just shrug their shoulders it leaves the less well off in a lonely place. I think it is in the spirit of MSE for those of us who can afford trousers with a small logo or over priced blouses to point out that money could be better spent.
I think the person who initially commented on my laundry arrangements did so in a rude way. Oldernotwiser made a refererence to me or my laundry arrangements or something as being daft.
One person has quoted a uniform of £500 and people planning for it. Well I did plan but that doesn't make it right. Circumstances change. My husband became profoundly disabled when I was pregnant with my youngest child, I sat at a medical board with him with a five day old baby in my arms to hear that he was going to lose his job and within a short time would be quadraplegic. I don't normally refer to this but when people talk about other peoples laundry arrangements they could maybe think that some people have rather different laundry needs to the average family, or when they comment the size of peoples families and how many children they can afford.

I am a very lucky person with a happy marriage and four bright, high achieving children. I have a good job, I am also a mother and fulltime carer. A lot to fit into the average day. If people want to critisise how I run my home job or family I can only say, "Come and have a go, see if you have the stamina to do it." One thing I say to staff when I am training is that they should always remember the effect their comments can have on others.

Finally before I go, and trust me I will never visit this thread again, I never imagined that my laundry regime could be of such interest or comment. I feel truly .............................:rotfl:

AnxiousMum

mumps wrote: »

So that would be £180 for sweatshirts, I don't know any parents with that sort of money to waste but I will look out for them.

Edit Just thought familes with two children £360 or a friend with four children at the school £720 on sweatshirts, how horrific is that.

Well, I have three in primary school - they ALL start with five sweatshirts each - but at £9 per sweatshirt. Not quite so horrific - if they weren't wearing uniform each day, I'd certainly be spending more than that throughout the year for various items of clothing for them

I simply put that in there because you seem to be disillusioned that all sweatshirts that are still 'newish' looking into the year are seemingly from homes whose uncaring mum doesn't wash them. Maybe there are some of us who wish to spend time with our kids of an evening rather than doing the laundry, and do the laundry of a weekend instead.

Never judge a book by it's cover........

poet123

I think you are over reacting to comments made on this thread, and forgetting that as adults we are all able to respond or not as we see fit.

I agree some of them may not have been phrased as politely as might have been wished. I do not think that either I or ONW fall into that category though. Our comments are forthright and direct but not rude.

ONW did not refer to your arrangements as daft, rather that to complain that you had tobuy 5 blouses when there was another option was daft. Either use the other option or accept the cost was the gist of that comment. A logical comment imo.

My personal profile re number of kids, job, home,husband, happy marriage of 28 years, caring duties (elderly relative) fit yours to a T, although why that is relevant I am unsure. So we all have stamina, it goes with the territory. We make choices, you chose not to wash daily and buy extra shirts, I choose to wash daily and buy fewer. They are just that, options,choices.

I also agree PBS is entiitled to a view, he/she gave that view, and I responded in a similar tone and manner.

PolishBigSpender

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

Considering that on most other boards Polishbigspender is generally considered to be a troll and about as Polish as you or I, comments have been quite civil!

Are you still preaching the old 'PolishBigSpender is not Polish' line? I thought we established quite a while ago that your idiotic assumption was just that - idiotic.

poet123 wrote:

You have no idea about me or what my order of priorities are. You seem to be suggesting that standards, well being and achievement cannot co exist. They can

I don't dispute this. But there are ways of maintaining standards without resorting to humiliating 'uniform checks' or arcane rules about what a uniform should be - indeed, if you set the standards at something that cannot be abused and is practical and sensible, you'll find that people will keep up the standards willingly.

The problem as far as I can tell is that schools in the UK often over-emphasise such small aspects as uniform, at the expense of actually encouraging people to grow as individuals. I don't believe that a uniform gives anyone the ability to think and act as an individual - certainly, uniforms do nothing but encourage people to think and act in a certain way.

Certainly, the mentality of many 'uniformed' individuals in the UK is nothing short of stone age in character.

Again, it is perfectly possible to produce well rounded, high achievers,who also have standards, and a sense of self worth. It does not suggest a well rounded personality if the requirement for school uniform is such an onerous and upsetting issue. Where do you draw the line?, any issue or rule could be deemed thus by any child or parent.

And rules should be challenged thus, and peer reviewed in order to ensure their satisfaction. These rules shouldn't be made by head teachers who learnt their trade from Victorian-era teachers, but rather should be made in conjunction with all parties - parents, teachers and children. Only then can they be respected.

Again, I'll refer you to Summerhill School - which is universally regarded as a success story throughout the world. If they, along with many progressive schools such as the Steiner schools can achieve very high standards for children despite not placing a huge emphasis on RULES - where are the State schools going wrong?

So are you saying that higher numbers of Polish children go onto FE and HE than in the UK?, or do higher numbers need to leave full time education to gain work?

The vast majority will go onto some form of FE - be it high school or otherwise. HE is also attended by a vast amount of people - my city alone has 30,000 students! But the only barrier here to study is your own achievement - indeed, many of the tricks that UK schools pull to avoid taking in 'undesirable' children are explicitly banned here.

So per capita, Poland has produced more world leaders/artists/scientists than Britain?

Is there realistically any way of measuring this?

Or HR people coming to live and work in a country they quite obviously despise?

I don't despise the UK. If I didn't, I wouldn't have a British partner, would I?

I despise the UK's attitude towards its youth and its citizens. People are treated like idiots in the UK - witness the endless health and safety laws, the over prescriptive curriculum in schools, the constant interfering in the individual's private life and so on.

Standards need to be instilled into the young and they will carry them through life. It is parents who provide the uniform, and they who either give a good or bad example in many other areas. The issue of mistakes is not relevant, a straw man included to fudge the real nub of the matter.

If there are rules in place, and you accept a place at such a school, then you need to adhere to those rules, if you don't then it is not a mistake but a deliberate action. Nor are we talking about schoolchidren, parents buy and maintain uniform. The wearing of uniform, is perfectly compatible with all the attributes you desire in a child to produce a well rounded adult.

Standards can be instilled in the young where they are logical and aren't designed to breed resentment. What's the point in a teacher spending a well deserved break period checking uniforms of school children? It achieves nothing and simply breeds resentment in the child - time is wasted by both parties, and it achieves absolutely nothing.

The wearing of uniform is to achieve one thing, and one thing only - conformity. This is the one reason why Asia will always lag behind the West when it comes to innovation and development, as they plainly lack the ability to truly think 'outside the box'. If the UK insists on going further and further down the authortarian path, then you'll find many more jobs being exported to Poland.

I do have issues with those who choose to live and work in the UK, profit from our economy, use our services and yet quite obviously despise us as a people. Those are your children and mine, and many of my students Polishbig spender is deriding. I accept we have educational issues,but will not sit back and see a generation of kids all tarred with the same brush used by PBS.

The generation of children going through school now in the UK are in grave danger of growing up to be emotionally !!!!!!. It's actually terrifying to look at how many children are prevented from doing anything dangerous, how health and safety issues are preventing many trips, how the society in general is in grave danger of their children walking straight into a conformist, obedient culture. It's not a desirable quality for any race to have - and I suspect the British Empire wasn't built on the back of obedience and conformity.

My kids, and obviously yours do not fall into that category. PBS has taken this and very many other opportunities to rubbish them and us, and will have to accept those of us who choose to retaliate.

You are claiming that you are well adjusted, yet you feel the need to retaliate? Reminds me of the excuse used by my former neighbour in the UK, who felt the need to smack his wife in the face repeatedly because she slapped him.

All I have to say on the matter is that the UK should be looking at just why they consistently come at the bottom or near the bottom of the child well being tables. Clearly over emphasis on uniform does not contribute to a happy society.