Christening when you don't believe in God??!!

galvanizersbaby

kitekat wrote: »

When i said there is no dif between the two i meant as far as having to be a member of the catholic church goes.In order to have your child baptised/ist holy communion you MUST go to the said church here.Re child going to catholic school and then naturally making their ist holy communion,what about a baby recently born who is not allowed to be baptised if parents do not go to church,i think it is scandalous,why should parents be forced to go to church just to have their child baptised/ist communion/confirmation.

I guess it comes down to the OP's original question in why would parent's want their child baptised in the catholic faith if they were not catholics themselves and not prepared to attend church or bring their child up in the faith.
1st holy communion as I understand is a step further than baptism and comes along later as a further commitment to the faith (by this time the child/individual will have had more education and will have a level of understanding)
I am not sure why a non catholic parent would wish this for their child?

One reason I can think of is that their child attends a RC school where the other children (majority parents catholic's) are having their holy communions - though I am just guessing here

You could make the same arguement as to why should the church be forced to baptise the child of a non believer if the parent made it clear upfront that they had no intention of keeping the promises they would have to make at the ceremony.
However I've not experienced this hostility myself either with the catholic church or CofE - both were equally welcoming inthat respect - I would imagine some father's/priests/vicars are stricter than others maybe

zita

I understand how you are feeling. I was brought up by strict catholic parents, I attended church mass every sunday, went to sunday school (when i would much rather stay at home and watch the cartoons on tv), did all the holy communions, etc, etc.
Nowadays I dont attend church mass, I go to church often in the morning when its quiet and pray. I have 2 children who I only had baptised because I want them to have the choice one day. If they want to be religious its ok but if they dont its ok as well. I personally found very strange and even disrespectful that some people choose to have a baptism just for the sake of having one, not because they have any believe in it. But then I am catholic even though I dont practise the believes are all with me.

treliac

seven-day-weekend wrote: »

Treliac, being a Christian is about having a relationship with God by accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, not about how often you go to church or what method of worship you use.

Now it is to be hoped that anyone who professes to be a Christian will at least attempt to live in a manner worthily y of it, but if they do not do so it does not make them NOT a Christian, it makes them a BAD Christian.

Being a Christian does not necesarily mean you are a nice person, the same as being an atheist doesn't necessarily make you a nasty one.

Forgive me my naivety seven-day. But if Jesus Christ preached christianity, as a way of life, to his followers, it appears logical to believe that one should live by those values in order to consider oneself a christian.

Rejecting Christ's values by failing to reflect them in your own life must surely call into question your entitlement to call yourself a christian.

No-one is perfect and forgiveness is a christian attribute, though not to the extent that it excuses the individual from the need to apply Christ's values to the way they live their life.

margaretclare

This is horrible. I have not 'preyed' on anybody. I have had nothing to gain from a tactful request and one phone call. I was often thanked afterwards, though.

There is no need to parade your prejudices in such a tasteless manner. I would do the same whether employed in a caring profession or not.

Often at a time of shock and grief, people do not know where to turn. You see it in those sad little piles of flowers at the site of a road-accident, messages to the dead, people have no belief so they do not know what to do. The chaplains I have worked with have been the most sensitive and tactful of people, and once the chaplain arrived I stood back. 'Preying' on vulnerable implies that I had something to gain, hoped for some reward. Nothing could be further from the truth. I can think of at least 3 occasions when I was thanked by the survivors because it was not something they thought of themselves - they didn't even know that there was a chaplain on-call - but they accepted the suggestion positively. Modern science and technology is geared to a cure and survival, but with the best expertise in the world, it doesn't always happen. People have need of some comfort at those times. You can't just walk away saying 'oh, he's dead, that's it, end of'.

absolutebounder

straddie wrote: »

I am a devout believer but would never have a child of mine christened. Why? Because (ironically considering this debate) it is an act with absolutely no significance to God whatsoever! The scriptures clearly teach that baptism is something which requires repentance and belief beforehand (Mark 16:16, Acts 8:36, 37 amongst others), neither of which is achievable by a baby with no developed conscience or intelligence. Furthermore baptism requires full immersion rather than any kind of sprinkling as it is symbolic of dying and rising a new person committed to following Christ, a symbol of Christ's physical death and resurrection (Romans 6:3, 4 amongst others)

The idea of going to heaven (or hell) after death is also a non-scriptural idea, as is the Catholic concept of limbo. Once we die that's it; finito; nada; nothing but dust - Ezekiel 18:4, Ecclesiastes 3:18-21 & 9:4-6, Psalm 49:12 are just some of the many passages that make this clear. As somebody alluded to earlier in the thread, any prospect of life after death (which is a reward not a right) comes in the future when Christ returns, not immediately upon dying - 2 Tim 4:1, Daniel 12:2 etc.

So basically whether a child is christened or not is meaningless whether you're religious or not! It's no more significant a decision than deciding what clothes to dress them in!

:T Im not a believer but agree with you. There is nothing to stop someone being baptized later on in life when that person has made up their mind after having looked a options. I actually think it is counter productive these days as there is so much scientific evidence on the internet that a child will eventually find to destroy their belief that they will feel lied to and let down by the church.

kindofagilr

I have a different problem, I am catholic, OH isnt anything BUT his mam and grandma are very reilgious and go to church once a week (I am sorry but I really cant remember what they are exactly, I know that sounds awful, but they havent even actually said, I just know they arent catholic)

So when I have babies and want them christened I am going to have a problem

I want them to be christened in a Catholic church, OH doesnt care (he wasnt keen on the idea as he doesnt believe children should have to follow whatever their parents believe in, but I explained to him that there are more things to come in which the child would get a choice, first holy communion and confimration and if the child didnt feel that they believed enough to continue int he faith then then woudlnt have to)

But I just know I am going to have bother from OH's family about them being christened catholic, I would honestly go as far to say that GIL wouldnt go

swampduck

Christianity is a way of life and very often underpins our culture. By this I mean we celebrate Christmas, Easter and so on but sadly many children and dare I say it? Adults? are unaware of the true meaning of these festivals. But these are the very people who are up in arms when local councils call christmas decorations by the name of winter festival lights and other politically correct descriptions.
Christmas is a traditional celebration but does have its roots in the birth of Jesus which happened 2000 years ago according to the Bible and although Christmas is now very commercialised it still has some meaning for people.
I was brought up as a catholic along with my siblings and had an atheist father and devout catholic mother but for me personally, looking back it was better to have an understanding of why we celebrated certain things than not and even though now I'm not a regular church goer I still find comfort in being able to go to church and be at one with God even though I know people can be with at one with God in their own home.
My children are both baptised catholics and had the education that went with being a catholic but as adults they choose not to follow the catholic faith. But they now have an understanding of their culture and if they choose to become muslims and pray 5 times a day then that is their choice because they will have the knowledge to compare the two religions and make an informed decision.
Too often children are not taught anything about any religion and just accept that Christmas just is ........Christmas!! and Ramadan is just that!!and then cannot understand why extremist religious fanatics would want to harm their fellow man by detonating bombs or starting wars in the name of religion.
When people have their kids christened or baptised they are in essence doing so because they rejecting Satan on the child's behalf and ridding the child of original sin (remember Adam and Eve?) by washing them with with water -until they are old enough to make that decision for themselves. The godparents are there to help guide the child through life hopefully as a good person with concern for his fellow man but if parents make the wrong choice of godparents they could be fostering the next despotic cruel world leader!! Its a minefield and no one person is right to assume that they know best.
But to end my waffling - as a southener moved north - I have to agree that it seems that the party after the christening is more important than giving a child a name to be known by!!

Swampy

absolutebounder

swampduck wrote: »

Christianity is a way of life and very often underpins our culture. By this I mean we celebrate Christmas, Easter and so on but sadly many children and dare I say it? Adults? are unaware of the true meaning of these festivals. But these are the very people who are up in arms when local councils call christmas decorations by the name of winter festival lights and other politically correct descriptions.
Christmas is a traditional celebration but does have its roots in the birth of Jesus which happened 2000 years ago according to the Bible and although Christmas is now very commercialised it still has some meaning for people.

The origins of christmas are Pagan. Christmas as christianity christmas was in effect a deal between the romans under constantine to get the pagans off their backs. In reality it had as little to do with christs birth (which almost certainly wasnt on dec 25th) as it does in out commercialised society today.


I was brought up as a catholic along with my siblings and had an atheist father and devout catholic mother but for me personally, looking back it was better to have an understanding of why we celebrated certain things than not and even though now I'm not a regular church goer I still find comfort in being able to go to church and be at one with God even though I know people can be with at one with God in their own home.
My children are both baptised catholics and had the education that went with being a catholic but as adults they choose not to follow the catholic faith. But they now have an understanding of their culture and if they choose to become muslims and pray 5 times a day then that is their choice because they will have the knowledge to compare the two religions and make an informed decision.
Too often children are not taught anything about any religion and just accept that Christmas just is ........Christmas!! and Ramadan is just that!!and then cannot understand why extremist religious fanatics would want to harm their fellow man by detonating bombs or starting wars in the name of religion.
When people have their kids christened or baptised they are in essence doing so because they rejecting Satan on the child's behalf and ridding the child of original sin (remember Adam and Eve?) by washing them with with water -until they are old enough to make that decision for themselves. The godparents are there to help guide the child through life hopefully as a good person with concern for his fellow man but if parents make the wrong choice of godparents they could be fostering the next despotic cruel world leader!! Its a minefield and no one person is right to assume that they know best.
But to end my waffling - as a southener moved north - I have to agree that it seems that the party after the christening is more important than giving a child a name to be known by!!

Swampy

Too many children are indoctrinated into their parents faith because of pressure from churches desperate to sign people up.
I didnt know anyone actually believed in satan anymore.
You say your children have rejected the faith that was given to them. Did they give a reason. I ask because most people believe what their teacher tells them with the exception of religion. I went to a CofE school but saw so many unanswerable holes in what we were taught in RE the chaplain was glad when I didnt turn up.

swampduck

absolutebounder wrote: »

Too many children are indoctrinated into their parents faith because of pressure from churches desperate to sign people up.
I didnt know anyone actually believed in satan anymore.
You say your children have rejected the faith that was given to them. Did they give a reason. I ask because most people believe what their teacher tells them with the exception of religion. I went to a CofE school but saw so many unanswerable holes in what we were taught in RE the chaplain was glad when I didnt turn up.

They have not rejected the faith - but they just dont practise it now - whether that might change remains to be seen.

But being a curious person in general - I work with someone who is muslim - but varying members of her family pray regularly and the same amount dont pray!! It doesnt seem to be a Christianity only thing!!
They shave their kids heads within hours/days of being born - she cant say why - they just do it- is that a form of indoctrination? She tells of the stories that are in the Koran etc and etc and they are - believe it not very similar to the Bible. Whether you practise any kind of religion or not - it must all be some kind of some 'brain washing' for want of a better word - because it is not limited to just one religion. A case of choose what you want to believe in - but only because you dont know better!!

swampy

margaretclare

Remembering back to when I was a midwife and used to meet Muslims through my job, I seem to recall that shaving the head is because having passed through the mother's birth canal makes the hair 'unclean', so it is shaved and a new lot grows. It was also the practice for the father or grandfather to arrive soon after birth, use a sort of speaking-trumpet into the child's ear, to say the name of Allah, in order that God's name was the first word the child heard.