Christening when you don't believe in God??!!

two-for-one

Regarding the "Christian values", my apologies, i obviously was not able to articulate myself clearly. You can certainly bring your child up with so called "christian values" and be an atheist.

Firstly, I obviously am not able to explain myself very clearly which then naturally leads to misunderstanding. I think I ought to go back to practicing how I have always been regarding religion which is to shut-up about it.

I don't impose my beliefs on others and I certainly would never dream of telling other people how they should live their life or what they should believe in.

lostinrates

two-for-one wrote: »

Regarding the "Christian values", my apologies, i obviously was not able to articulate myself clearly. You can certainly bring your child up with so called "christian values" and be an atheist.

Firstly, I obviously am not able to explain myself very clearly which then naturally leads to misunderstanding. I think I ought to go back to practicing how I have always been regarding religion which is to shut-up about it.

I don't impose my beliefs on others and I certainly would never dream of telling other people how they should live their life or what they should believe in.

IMO you have nothing o apologise for. You stated an opinion, a very valid one. I just feel that I don't agree. I took no offense, and hope you didn't with my reply.

Belief is extremely personal. I also thnk most of us rarely succeed in living up to our ideals. If people seek help from sources of moral guidance, whether they believe or not, I dontb think this necessairly makes mockery of the religion, personally. I think its more damaging when those who profess to believe live in extreme and unrepentant hypocracy, but again, tats just a personal opinion, and noty something I submit as factual, or ''correct''.:o

two-for-one

Hi lostinrates, No offence taken at all. I was actually replying to a previous post.

I believe anyone can go to "heaven" (if there really is one) and I certainly don't believe you have to be a christian to get there. To be honest I think it's all quite inmaterial as to whether or not you believe in god or don't believe in order to get to heaven and whose to say there is a Heaven? I believe that as long as you are a good person, a person who tries their best to be good to others etc, then that's all that matters.

I have come across so called "devout" christians who go to church every sunday and who in my opinion do not have a christian bone in their body. I think my issue with this christianing is that I feel they are doing it because its the "done" thing without any thought at all to the meaning behind it all. I know them very well.

treliac

milliebear00001 wrote: »

It's off topic, but you can't PROVE the existence or non-existence of God, in the scientific sense of the word. Thats why it's a matter of 'faith'. What you can do, if you are so inclined, is think about probability, which is what I did when coming to the conclusion I am an atheist. I think even Richard Dawkins accepts that there is an infinitessimally small possibility that he is wrong in his assertion that there is no supernatural being.

I can't possibly believe in the existence of a God who allows the atrocities of the world to happen and the pain and suffering caused by man's inhumanity to fellow man or to other living creatures. I know the argument about free will, etc. etc. but it doesn't work for me at all. The world is full of the most terrible imbalances of haves and have nots and there is no excuse IMO for any force for good that would not exert a more compassionate control over this world.

The question of whether christianity is more about living life according to christian values, was answered for me once by a very religious relative who assured me that it was only through proper worship that one could be a christian. It seemed that it was more important to go to church than to live life in a caring and morally responsible manner (and I certainly know a number of churchgoers who don't abide by even the more lenient christian rules). I don't know whether there is any general consensus on the subject within the churches, though I would anticipate both aspects of behaviour and worship to be expected of 'christians.'

The fact that religious leaders keep 'amending' the rules around what is acceptable/unacceptable within the church, leads me to believe that it's driven by a need to maintain congregation levels in a world where christianity is dwindling, which hardly inspires adherence to religious beliefs born of God's teachings -if they can be changed when it suits.

Then again, the fierce defending of one religion against another and the death and carnage that is permitted towards foes from religious opponents, finally finishes any hope I might have that religion has answers for the difficulties that beset us as a human race.

FWIW, my OH speculates that this world is one huge experiment and we and our behaviours are being watched by some sort of extra-terrestrial scientific team.

P.S. Sorry if I've gone off at too much of a tangent. I see that the OP was asking about christening at the start of the thread! So to answer that - I'd do what felt most right for me and my family.

seven-day-weekend

Treliac, being a Christian is about having a relationship with God by accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, not about how often you go to church or what method of worship you use.

Now it is to be hoped that anyone who professes to be a Christian will at least attempt to live in a manner worthily y of it, but if they do not do so it does not make them NOT a Christian, it makes them a BAD Christian.

Being a Christian does not necesarily mean you are a nice person, the same as being an atheist doesn't necessarily make you a nasty one.

Rev

My mum had be christened and took me to church every week until I was of an age to understand it and decide for myself that I thought it was all tosh. She thought it the best way, since if I was a believer I had a church background, if I decided that I didn't believe, I could walk away.

I'm atheist, and if I had children I wouldn't get them christened unless they asked once they were old enough to understand what religion is, and make an informed decision about the religion they're choosing to become a part of.

I have been asked by a few friends to be their childs god parent, but for me personally, I couldn't do it. I'd be a huge hypocrite if I did, and that's not an example I'd like to set to a child. Some of my friends have been offended/upset by that decision, and I feel bad about that, but I'd feel far worse taking part in a religious ceremony that to me, is pointless.

galvanizersbaby

kitekat wrote: »

There is no difference between baptism and ist holy communion here,if the parents do not go to the Catholic church then just like ist holy communion,the child is not allowed to be christened/baptised.Thats what happened to my friend on both occassions.Maybe its dif in other places i have no idea.

They are still 2 completely different ceremonies as far as I'm aware - I don't think that differs from area to area.
1st holy communion is usually when the child is older

I assume your friends child attends a catholic school where it would be natural for holy communion to be a next step? (unless she/he is pursuing the catholic religion without parental input?)
In which case catholic schools tend to be geared to the children of parents who are of the catholic faith which I think is fair enough really.
I'm pretty sure there would be nothing to stop your friend attending church if her daughter desires this.
If this isn't something your friend wants/is prepared to do then perhaps she needs to reconsider her choice of school for her daughter.

Nicki

two-for-one wrote: »

As for attending the christening, I wouldn't mind at all if the parents of the child were in some way open to the idea of christianity, or curious about it (don't know how else to articulate it) but to openly declare that they do not believe and to label themselves as "Atheist" on their Facebook profile makes it quite hard for me to willingly be part of the charade.

I guess what's the big deal? I should just go, listen to them tell a whole pack of fibs about how they believe and how they will bring their kid up with christian values etc. At the end of the day, it's no big deal, is it?

My own view (and this is a personal one) is that no one is in a position to judge whether or not another is "open to the idea of christianity" or not, irrespective of what they say on their facebook entry. A lot of people are embarrassed to talk about their religious beliefs, and some people who are curious about religion, but nervous about how being a christian would affect their relationships with non-christians, might profess themselves to be agnostic or atheist to the world until they have taken a decision to commit. For some people, particularly those not brought up in a religious family, to openly profess yourself to be a christian is a very brave act, and one which takes some working up to. Even Jesus's own disciple after all felt compelled to pretend to doubt him after the crucifixion in the company of those who would think less of him for this faith.

Any couple who chooses to have their child christened has at least given some thought to the question of religion, and from little acorns big oaks grow. There are many many families to whom the question of baptism would never even occur, photo op or not, so remote are they from the idea of christianity.

With respect, I feel it is not for you to judge others motivations, and judgment on faith is left to a higher authority than you, who can see into people's hearts and souls, not just onto their facebook page. It is of course entirely up to you whether you attend the service or not, but frankly if you react in real life to your friends in the same way as the post I have quoted, you are driving them further away from christianity, rather than opening the door to them finding a faith, which was the point I was trying to make in my first post to which you have taken such exception.

straddie

I am a devout believer but would never have a child of mine christened. Why? Because (ironically considering this debate) it is an act with absolutely no significance to God whatsoever! The scriptures clearly teach that baptism is something which requires repentance and belief beforehand (Mark 16:16, Acts 8:36, 37 amongst others), neither of which is achievable by a baby with no developed conscience or intelligence. Furthermore baptism requires full immersion rather than any kind of sprinkling as it is symbolic of dying and rising a new person committed to following Christ, a symbol of Christ's physical death and resurrection (Romans 6:3, 4 amongst others)

The idea of going to heaven (or hell) after death is also a non-scriptural idea, as is the Catholic concept of limbo. Once we die that's it; finito; nada; nothing but dust - Ezekiel 18:4, Ecclesiastes 3:18-21 & 9:4-6, Psalm 49:12 are just some of the many passages that make this clear. As somebody alluded to earlier in the thread, any prospect of life after death (which is a reward not a right) comes in the future when Christ returns, not immediately upon dying - 2 Tim 4:1, Daniel 12:2 etc.

So basically whether a child is christened or not is meaningless whether you're religious or not! It's no more significant a decision than deciding what clothes to dress them in!

kitekat

galvanizersbaby wrote: »

They are still 2 completely different ceremonies as far as I'm aware - I don't think that differs from area to area.
1st holy communion is usually when the child is older

I assume your friends child attends a catholic school where it would be natural for holy communion to be a next step? (unless she/he is pursuing the catholic religion without parental input?)
In which case catholic schools tend to be geared to the children of parents who are of the catholic faith which I think is fair enough really.
I'm pretty sure there would be nothing to stop your friend attending church if her daughter desires this.
If this isn't something your friend wants/is prepared to do then perhaps she needs to reconsider her choice of school for her daughter.

When i said there is no dif between the two i meant as far as having to be a member of the catholic church goes.In order to have your child baptised/ist holy communion you MUST go to the said church here.Re child going to catholic school and then naturally making their ist holy communion,what about a baby recently born who is not allowed to be baptised if parents do not go to church,i think it is scandalous,why should parents be forced to go to church just to have their child baptised/ist communion/confirmation.