Today's strike....

[Deleted User]

Your dad isn't a media studies lecturer, is he?

I'd love to know what medical graduate starts on 60K. The only way you get that kind of money is in The City.

To clear things up, here's a link to the pay scales for academic staff at Cardiff University.
Open PDF

casson2006

We have been told they are going to strike again in next couple of weeks and now our timetables have been all changed, and we suffer for this because we have 2 do an exam on a practical and now they have moved that practical to the day of the exam so now we have no time 2 prepare or anything. So how is it fair on the students? we pay our fee's!!

talksalot81

Sigur wrote:

He says, most of the lecturers rarely if ever do a full weeks work (36hours plus), your stories of constant work seem to be heavily exaggerated. The only time they "work" is exam time, where all you hear is about how hard life is for them. He says a lot of their time is mixed between visiting their Erasmus students, their few hours of lecturing per week and then their private research consultation.

Funny that, our accountants wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't have any idea how many hours a staff member does..... So given that my chief supervisor has no erasmus students and does not have private consultations, he must therefore do precious little work? You have sadly missed out on the bulk of what my supervisor does in work time. I dont know about the arts, but you and your dad are a million miles out when it comes to basic scientific academics.

If you think you'll be earning £60k on graduation, you're sadly misguided unless you're in the medicine/veterinary school. Science degrees rarely have such starting salaries, unless you're very lucky.

You are taking the extreme scenario. If lucky, one of the top professorial staff may earn 60k. Going down the academic route will at best get me 25k at first.... industrial could be up to 40k.... you tell me how that makes the academic route more financially rewarding....

talksalot81

ringo_24601 wrote:

To clear things up, here's a link to the pay scales for academic staff at Cardiff University.
Open PDF

Thanks ringo.

It should also be noted that someone does not walk out of a phd into a lectureship. The standard way will be that you have 7 years or so of study, then you will have a few, maybe alot, as a prda (paying less than the base lecture salary) and then you might be lucky enough to get a lectureship. I would say it will take 10 years if you are lucky, that is 7 on top of your degree..... I dont imagine many skilled professionals in the industrial world would accept £30k with a doctorate and a half dozen years experience....

I dont think it is on to punish the students, but what other action is there? Another note for you..... on a research grant, staff cost ALOT (read double) more than what they are paid. Why? The university will charge enormous overheads (look up full economic costing for more on recent developments). Add to that all this extra fee money they have and there is alot of money floating about. Perhaps if universities didnt have so much nonsensical administration (no point arguing with me on this one - if you disagree, it makes you either one of them, or totally lacking in knowledge of the matter) then there would be even more money and more for the academic staff.

melancholly

The main part of the strike action is actually not tuesday's walkout (Sigur - before you add any more responses you really should read what the AUT says - you really should be clear about you're talking about because there are many people on here who have a much better first-hand understanding of the situation than you picking up ideas from a parent!).

The main thing that will have an impact is the action short of a strike (http://www.aut.org.uk/index.cfm?articleid=1556). The number of people picketing earlier this week is not the way to gauge the impact. The stike does not affect research acivity so many people with high work loads came in to do research but not teaching. Hence the picket line was for a short amount of time - people have far too much to do anyway, without missing a whole day which they could legitimately devote to pure reserach activity! Many academics are not union members but 100% agree with the sentiments. Many others cannot afford to lose a day's pay because the pay is much lower than other sectors.

A 40% pay rise is clearly unrealistic - but in negotiation, you aim high and then compromise... that's the way it goes.

Students are now paying fees and I can see why they feel hard-done-by in this situations - but one of the AUTs key points is that between now and 2008. univeristy funding will increase by 25%, but none of this is going to filter down to academic staff. How can anyone see that situation and think that it's fair?!

The saying goes that if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. If universities in this country don't want to be left behind in relation to the rest of the world, they will soon have to start paying people what they deserve or the standards will drop as people either go abroad or into industry.

a quick play on the prospects website does flag up interesting facts - you start on more as a trainee accountant than you do as a lecturer in a university!! things like this are very frustrating since people going into academia tend to be those who got very high marks in their degrees - watching friends buying houses and getting paid 3 times what I am is not fun at all.

(and one final comment - even if academic staff are only in their offices for 36 hours a week, this does not represent the time spent doing marking, lecture planning, reading theses, writing papers, reviewing papers etc that is often more conveniently done at home.)

jr666

whats the legal position for students? Can students take action against universities? In essence we are customers buying a degree. If the assesment boycott carries on into the summer holidays then thousands of paying customers will not receive the product they have paid for. If i dont end up with a grade at the end of this term i'll be looking for a refund on my tuition fees please!

lellie

the assessment thing is a pain.. tests cancelled for maths (my boyfriend's course) means now his course is 100% exam at the end of the year. The tests are usually much easier than the exam so this is BAD.

For me it means I'm not gonna get my long essay drafts read so I'm gonna have to hand it in and hope for the best. blah.

exil

A few myths and legends here on both sides.

Lecturers are not particularly well paid for the qualifications they have. They are not exactly in poverty either. Median salary in 2005, 37k. By the time a lecturer gets to retirement he would expect to be getting a lot more than that.

As in many jobs, some work harder than others. Set hours are very low, but this is added to by time spent researching, marking, etc. In few jobs, though, do you have so much control over when and how long you work. People do the job because they enjoy the freedom. There are drawbacks - increasingly the job is getting more bureaucratic and target-driven. But - so is every other comparable job.

Our student above who expected to walk into a 40k job in industry on graduation may be in for a shock!

melancholly - are you an AUT member? I was - until a couple of weeks ago.

To deal with some of your points -

about picketing - AUT members are not meant to do ANY work on a strike day, so your argument about people going off to do research is nonsense. Our pickets went to the pub at about 9am.

non-union members - I suppose anyone asked if they deserve more pay would say "yes". But non-AUT members cannot be said to be supporting the strike. In fact only 30% of AUT members actually voted for one. If non-members are suddenly overwhelmed with a desire to join the strike, they can always join up.

"you start on more as a trainee accountant than you do as a lecturer in a university"

sorry, I just don't believe this. A quick look at real jobs shows part-qualified accountant jobs at 16 to 24k. Accountants (professionally qualified ones) are indeed slightly better paid on average than lecturers. But are we really saying lecturers should be paid better than ANY other profession? Including, say, barristers or surgeons?

OK, lecturers are well qualified. But there are other skills which determine what salary you get. David Beckham doesn't have a PhD as far as I know.

"paid 3 times more than me". I find this hard to believe. Doctors and barristers, perhaps. A look at the ASHE (hours and salaries survey) shows the reality. Most comparable jobs to lecturers have, broadly, comparable salaries.

The peanuts/monkeys argument works up to a point, but the logic of it is that if you increase the salary you need to get rid of the worst performers to make room for the rush of whizzkids entering the profession.

Lecturers do have a case for better salaries, if not necessarily a 20-30% across the board rise. But the AUT have made tactical errors and have come across as selfish
and as a bunch of 70s-style Dave Sparts.

The point about sueing the uni is a good one. If unis cannot get students assessed and get degrees handed out, they might have to close down. A great victory for the AUT that would be.

melancholly

exil wrote:

melancholly - are you an AUT member? I was - until a couple of weeks ago.

AUT members are not meant to do ANY work on a strike day, so your argument about people going off to do research is nonsense. Our pickets went to the pub at about 9am

"you start on more as a trainee accountant than you do as a lecturer in a university"

sorry, I just don't believe this.

"paid 3 times more than me". I find this hard to believe. Doctors and barristers, perhaps.

fair points but i should come back to them:

no I'm not an AUT member - not in a position to be at the moment as i'm not a lecturer myself.

many people in my department have so much work and deadlines approaching that they just could not afford a full day off - a lot worked from home or did research - maybe it's not sticking to the letter of the strike, but it's what they did! i'm not makign things up for fun . oh - and although only 30% of members voted for, this is due to a 50% turnout. of those who did vote, 64% voted for strike action and 81% voted for action short of a strike - you see, you prove anything you want with statistics!!

the facts on salaries came from https://www.prospects.ac.uk - i have no reason to doubt them. your points on later salaries are undoubtably valid, but you don't walk into a £37K a year chair's job! you start on much lower.

and as far as being paid 3 times what i am - well, i'm still studying for a phd, so yes, people are getting over £30K a year, three times what i am - with a good degree from a good university (which you need to get a phd place with funding - and is probably the most sensible baseline for comparison rather than any graduate entry job), you can get many many jobs which start at over £30K in the city; consultants (management, strategic, IT etc), accountants, solicitors, barristers, bankers, buyers, doctors, traders etc etc. When i finish all 7 years of training, i will expect to get just under £20K (maybe less!) for a postdoc. At an equivalent point in a different career, many of my friends with 4 years experience will (already are ) be earning over £40K, which will be twice what i am.

it's not all about the money - it's the pressure, the lack of job security, it's the fact that students are now "customers" with much higher demands than before fees were introduced.....

i've said (well maybe only implied!) earlier in this thread that I think the benefits out-weigh the positives, or i wouldn't be going down this route; my aim is to try and explain for all the undergrads, who are rightly annoyed at not getting lectures or marking done, why people in academia are disillusioned. considering the support for firefighters, teachers and tube drivers (although admittedly that's not as high as previously!) for strikes, i think lecturers get a bad press about it all..... universities are very lucky that a lot of people have a real vocation for research, because the other benefits don't add a lot - this is true of other professions such as nursing, it's not a unique arguement.

i'm not saying at all that the AUT is a great organisation, just trying to put across the reasons behind the strike to students who really haven't been told - which is a major flaw in the strike - the people who have to deal with the consequences haven't been told the reasons behind it. i think the AUT's demands are unrealistic (i've said it on here already!), but it's all a negotiation with universities, so clearly you start far to high and come down to something reasonable!

exil

Sorry, I'd assumed you were already a lecturer and knew people getting 3x 25k, ie 75k!!!!! The average lecturer gets rather more than 3x what you're on now.

I agree researchers are badly paid - and technicians, clerks, porters etc even more so. However the AUT claim is for a blanket rise, and for extra scale points at the top of the senior lecturer scale. This wouldn't necessarily do much for the groups I've mentioned.