Today's strike....

misskool

Sigur wrote:

Obviously research is important, but they get paid for that on top of what the government pays them.

If they want to enjoy few lecturing/tutorial hours, they shouldn't demanding higher wages. If they want higher wages, they'll have to cut their private sector research time, the number of non-essential conferences they go to and increase availability to students.

No lecturers are on the bread line, in fact there are thousands of researchers out there in both the public and private sector who wish they had a lecturing position. Lecturing to students is possibly the easiest job, all you have to do it relay your own biased information. You don't need to teach, nor do you need to wait for anyone to catch up like schoolteachers have to. Its simple relay the information and then post your office hours in which students who are having difficulties can visit. Good luck finding them in those hours though.

An increase in tuition fees, wasn't mean to go to the lecturers. It was for the universities.

If they are so talented, join the private sector research companies and do it fulltime. Oh wait, that mean 36hr weeks, fewer holidays, less prestige and probably lower wages. Ha.

Many lecturers don't get paid extra for consulting or anything as glamorous as that. There are obvious professions where they are in demand but in my field, there isn't anything like it.

Lecturing to students is not a piece of cake. There is hours of preparation involved and then there's marking and setting exam questions, endless syllabus meetings. On top of all the teaching, your pay raise is determined by the amount of research that you've accomplished.

You wonder why students feel as if lecturers don't want to teach them? Ask the universities to explain why lecturer's pay rises are in line with their research output rather than the number of classes they teach.

And as for increased pay, tenured full time lecturers are the privileged few who have a secure position at a university. Post-docs and other lecturers are on short term contracts renewable at the discretion of the university ranging from 3-5 years. And their salary is nowhere near the numbers that have been quoted in this thread.

fran_from_willesden

Sigur wrote:

I take it you were a janitor. The entire economic arguement in your post is fundamentally flawed and stupidly inane.

Universities are nothing without students. Only the best lecturers should be rewarded, a broad 40% payrise is first ridiculously obscene and there is no justification for it. A pay rise, yes. a 40% payrise, no.

Giving an across the board payrise to all lecturers will only lead to inefficiency and a detrimental effect on universities in the long term. The best should be rewarded, and the mediocre shouldn't, that's why a union demanding a huge rise will only cripple university budgets and lead to staff cuts.

Departments which have unfashionable courses (such as engineering, physics, chemisty etc), would suddenly have to pay more from their budget to its staff, and this deficit wouldn't be filled with more students applying. Are you to say that these courses should then be cancelled, if you're such a firm believer in demand and supply? If the courses are cancelled, the lecturers are then without jobs. Its a vicious circle, and a circle controlled by the lecturers union because in the long term asking for insane pay increases only damages them.

If there is demand for the course, your course won't be cancelled. Undergraduate students are more interested in the teaching scores of universities, rather than the research scores which would interest businesses and post-graduates more.

How rude are you? It doesn't matter what position a person had at a university, without engineers, physicists and chemists we wouldn't be having this argument.
I'm doing an engineering masters...unfashionable I can guarantee it's not. Regardless of whether there is demand for a course, if there's noone to teach it, it'll get cancelled.

How would you define the 'best lecturers'?? Someone that the students like because they makes the lectures interesting or someone who is at the cutting edge of research, possibly the best in their field but maybe isn't that good at putting their point across?

Sigur_2

Rude?

Obviously you can't read.

MercilessKiller

imo this is actually a very very good debate.. why don't we all stop with the abusing and keep it on the clean side (Yes i know i abused before but i regret it :P)

[Deleted User]

For the record, I was a research assistant working in computational biology; I assisted with the statistical analysis and experiemental design of high-throughput transcriptomic experiements (microarrays). I also designed and build databases and website applications. My funding came from the Welsh NHS, the DTI and the WDA(welsh developement agency). The equiptment in our lab was mostly paid for using Cancer research UK money.

I was not the janitor, but hey, those guys are important too. Some of my friends were janitors and hospital porters, so don't be such a snob.

We didn't depend on students at all for funding, infact we didn't have an undergraduates. It was a college of medicine and I worked in the pathology department. None of the 'lecturers' actually did any lecturing - they had to do research/admin, although some did exam marking. Our funding for staff primarily came from the various research councils (BBSRC, MRC, Cancer Research UK).

Most staff funding DID NOT come from the university (i.e. student fees), although wages were set by the university. Our department survived by doing great research, getting published in good papers and thus securing more money for future research. It really is a big cycle of research - if you have a few bad years as a post-doc researcher, you might as well kiss a lectureship goodbye.

I've got to say I never felt too bad for the lecturers, their salary wasn't terrible, it was the post-docs who got the worst deal. You could be 30, have a degree, a masters, a PhD and a few years working experience and not even be hitting 26K a year.

Here are some articles on university funding if you get bored on your 4hr a week degree course Sigur - http://education.guardian.co.uk/universityfunding/0,14337,1168076,00.html

talksalot81

I have not read all of this, but what I have does ring of ignorance. I am a final year phd student and i work closely with both a professorial and standard lecturning staff.

I can guarantee you that pay is not what you think. Lecturers are not paid nothing, but the pay is NOT enormous.

If they are so talented, join the private sector research companies and do it fulltime. Oh wait, that mean 36hr weeks, fewer holidays, less prestige and probably lower wages. Ha.

This is so far from the truth it is unbelievable. Academic staff (science staff at least) will often work much longer than 36 hours a week. I have lost count of the number of weeks we have spent working 8 til midnight because there is work needs done. Holidays - well academics often take holidays when they can, sometimes that means they do not get a holiday at all. Holidays for academics are much more difficult than for those in industry. Prestige - jeees louise, researchers are shunned by the public who think they know best so dont want to know when their thoughts are contradicted. Lecturing and associated research dont bring prestige! Finally, wages - this is where you are most wrong. In 6 months, I will look for a job. If I try and make my way towards academia, I will be between £20-30k for several years. If I go industrial I may be earning double that and will be earning significantly more than a junior lecturer.

I am sorry but there is alot of nonsense spouted so far on this thread. If you have only ever been through university as an undergraduate, you are totally out of place commenting about what academics do because you just wont have seen the half of it.

fran_from_willesden

talksalot81 wrote:

I have not read all of this, but what I have does ring of ignorance. I am a final year phd student and i work closely with both a professorial and standard lecturning staff.

I can guarantee you that pay is not what you think. Lecturers are not paid nothing, but the pay is NOT enormous.



This is so far from the truth it is unbelievable. Academic staff (science staff at least) will often work much longer than 36 hours a week. I have lost count of the number of weeks we have spent working 8 til midnight because there is work needs done. Holidays - well academics often take holidays when they can, sometimes that means they do not get a holiday at all. Holidays for academics are much more difficult than for those in industry. Prestige - jeees louise, researchers are shunned by the public who think they know best so dont want to know when their thoughts are contradicted. Lecturing and associated research dont bring prestige! Finally, wages - this is where you are most wrong. In 6 months, I will look for a job. If I try and make my way towards academia, I will be between £20-30k for several years. If I go industrial I may be earning double that and will be earning significantly more than a junior lecturer.

I am sorry but there is alot of nonsense spouted so far on this thread. If you have only ever been through university as an undergraduate, you are totally out of place commenting about what academics do because you just wont have seen the half of it.

I think most of the nonsense so far has been sprouted by Sigur. You really need to read from the beginning though because then it might make a bit more sense. I know that lecturers work longer then stated hours. The same can be said for anyone who teaches - from primary school right up to university level.
As a postgrad now I can say that my two main lecturers seem to sleep in their offices at the moment. Also, more people then you think have been educated further then undergrad level.

talksalot81

fran_from_willesden wrote:

I think most of the nonsense so far has been sprouted by Sigur. You really need to read from the beginning though because then it might make a bit more sense. I know that lecturers work longer then stated hours. The same can be said for anyone who teaches - from primary school right up to university level.
As a postgrad now I can say that my two main lecturers seem to sleep in their offices at the moment. Also, more people then you think have been educated further then undergrad level.

I am intending to read right through..... just been tangled up in trying to get some last minute results!

I probably didnt pick the right term when i referred to people who have only been undergrads. I think the misconceptions will be held by anyone who has only ever been on a taught course. It is mostly only when a student is researching (in other words working directly with an academic) that you find out the real story.

I'll say more when I have managed to read the posts that werent so blatantly wrong!

bestpud

As an undergrad, I did have a lecture cancelled on Tuesday but I fully support the strike. I realise it is probably different for students in their final year but I also support the work to rule (or marking ban). As I understand it, some lecturers are not actually paid to mark i.e. it is not part of their contract and they don't get official time to do it?

I can't speak for all unis, but the one I attend has, on the whole, brilliant lecturers, who have a genuine passion for their subject and work very hard for all students.

I also believe the protest is about the increasing number of part time and temporary contracts as about pay?

I, personally, would much prefer to see the increased fees spent on a rise for lecturers than the vc - 25% - nothing like rubbing their noses in it!!!

Finally, as a parent, I want my children to have the best lecturers if they decide to go to uni, not the no-hopers who just scrape through and have no choice but to take a low paid lecturing option. The only way to ensure this is to offer them a professional contract and salary, so passing their knowledge on to others is a viable option.

Helen

Sigur_2

talksalot81 wrote:

I have not read all of this, but what I have does ring of ignorance. I am a final year phd student and i work closely with both a professorial and standard lecturning staff.

I can guarantee you that pay is not what you think. Lecturers are not paid nothing, but the pay is NOT enormous.



This is so far from the truth it is unbelievable. Academic staff (science staff at least) will often work much longer than 36 hours a week. I have lost count of the number of weeks we have spent working 8 til midnight because there is work needs done. Holidays - well academics often take holidays when they can, sometimes that means they do not get a holiday at all. Holidays for academics are much more difficult than for those in industry. Prestige - jeees louise, researchers are shunned by the public who think they know best so dont want to know when their thoughts are contradicted. Lecturing and associated research dont bring prestige! Finally, wages - this is where you are most wrong. In 6 months, I will look for a job. If I try and make my way towards academia, I will be between £20-30k for several years. If I go industrial I may be earning double that and will be earning significantly more than a junior lecturer.

I am sorry but there is alot of nonsense spouted so far on this thread. If you have only ever been through university as an undergraduate, you are totally out of place commenting about what academics do because you just wont have seen the half of it.

Actually my father is the head accountant for a large British university, so he probably see more than you, especially since you're within the system and have a biased view on the situation.

He says, most of the lecturers rarely if ever do a full weeks work (36hours plus), your stories of constant work seem to be heavily exaggerated. The only time they "work" is exam time, where all you hear is about how hard life is for them. He says a lot of their time is mixed between visiting their Erasmus students, their few hours of lecturing per week and then their private research consultation.

If you think you'll be earning £60k on graduation, you're sadly misguided unless you're in the medicine/veterinary school. Science degrees rarely have such starting salaries, unless you're very lucky.

If you agree with a 40% pay rise, you're the fool. The funny thing is, at my fathers university the lecturers came an picketed for 2 hours. Out of the dozens who were striking, only 7 actually turned up. Hahaha.

Finally, as a parent, I want my children to have the best lecturers if they decide to go to uni, not the no-hopers who just scrape through and have no choice but to take a low paid lecturing option. The only way to ensure this is to offer them a professional contract and salary, so passing their knowledge on to others is a viable option.

Wow. Just wow. You mustn't be studying Economics, that's for sure.