1&1 Domain debtor collectors!!

Nemo101

I had a domain with 1&1 which I frgot about and didnt renew. i thought I had taken it of now I got letter from debt collection agent asking for over £25 with fees!

Anyone know what I can do ...... HELP

bookworm1363

Who's the DCA?

gollum007

Ignore them, have been for years.
They're working on the basis of German contract law, and completely contravening Nominet guidelines. They've been sending the odd letter to my mothers house, and that's all they've ever managed to do.

If they had half a brain, they'd just whois one of the other domains which used to be on the same account for my current address and phone :rotfl:

In any case though, they don't have a leg to stand on, as thier contracts are based on German law, and it doesn't apply.

-Gollum

Nemo101

arvato finance service Ltd. they said its for 2 domains when I called today.

I was going to ignore it. The so called company name to which letter is sent doesnt even exist then FAO my first name.

avidsaver_3

Hi Nemo, Same thing happened to me, I just emailed 1&1 and told them in no uncertain terms that I am not paying this so called charge as the domain was cancelled and not renewed over 3 years ago, got an email back saying as a gesture of goodwill they will diminish the debt, so maybe an email direct to 1&1 support may help.

Nemo101

Ok I found following link which may help others when they google and find this thread lol
http://www.grumbletext.co.uk/vt.php?t=1242&start=50&subj=complaints+1%26amp%3B1+Internet+Ltd+-+what+terrible+servce.+complaint

I have just emailed one and one and will let you know what they say.

Thanks guys

Nemo101

I dont know what to do I just got this response finally after emailing so many times then faxing!!

Thank you for your email.

This is to inform you that the domain has been cancelled due to non
payment.
We have not received cancellation from you.
We had attempted to collect the outstanding invoice were unable to do
so.
After many emails and letters and no correspondence the account was
passed over to AFS our debt collectors.


Please settle the balance with AFS


If you have any further questions do not hesitate to contact us.

Nemo101

Is the following from 1&1 T&C even legal?

4.4

Once we fulfill your domain order we shall notify you of the successful registration of the domain name(s).
We will host your domain name(s) for the initial pre-paid registration/billing period and for all future registration/billing periods. Your account will be automatically charged at the beginning of each registration/billing cycle, for the entire cycle. Registration/billing cycles will continue automatically, except at which time you cancel the package or move the domain(s) from 1&1.

This means u can never get out of a contract from 1&1 unless u tell them. Even gym membership after contract u cancel payment and they with hold service!

T&C
http://order.1and1.co.uk/xml/order/TcGeneral;jsessionid=AB3009945026F5B4B8A4E2BF0C33B452.TC32b?__frame=_top&__lf=Order

I got this I was going to send But i think the bit about section 4.4 is outdated now: anyone have any thoughts please

Thank you for your response.

However your are erroneous in your interpretation of the terms and conditions. The duration of the agreement was from 2006 to 2008, the domain name was purchased for 2 years. There is no need for us to terminate the agreement because the agreement was terminated in 2008. However if you wish us to let you know that we do not wish to renew the domain name, please be advised that we do not wish to renew the domain name! Nowhere in your terms do you state that you automatically renew the domain name.

A number of your competitors do state clearly in their TCOB that they have a positive opt in for renewal and they offer you the opportunity to opt out before the renewal time. Your terms do not state this.

Let us review section 4.4,

The Company agrees that for the Duration Period of this Agreement (2006 - 2008) and in consideration (IN RETURN FOR PAYMENT) of the payment of the Charges by the Customer it will (FUTURE TENSE I.E.ON RECEIPT OF PAYMENT THE COMPANY WILL RENEW) renew the registration of domain names, Hosting fees, Additional services for the Renewal Period.

Emphasis in capitals inserted by us.

Basically what that clause is actually stating is that when the duration period of the initial agreement is up for renewal the domain name and/or services will be renewed upon receipt of payment from the customer. More simply put the customer must pay before renewal.

Therefore if the customer does not wish to renew and consequently does not offer consideration (payment) the domain name will not be renewed.

Once again we reiterate that it is not what you think the clause says it is actually what it says that counts.

Your company obviously see this differently therefore highlighting the ambiguity of the clause and therefore this clause could be deemed as unfair under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999.

Paying particular attention to the following aspects of this act:-


1. A consumer is not bound by a standard term in a contract with a seller or supplier if that term is unfair.
2. A standard term is unfair if it creates a significant imbalance in the parties’ rights under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer, contrary to the requirement of good faith.
3. All terms (including core terms) must be in plain intelligible language otherwise they are open to challenge as unfair.

This makes the contract void and I suggest that you refer to Regulation 7 (2).

..."where there is a doubt about the meaning of the written term, the interpretation which is most favourable to the consumer shall prevail.."

Essentially your TCOB should state unequivocally that the domain name will be automatically renewed at the end of each period unless the customer informs you in writing prior to the renewal date, after which the customer will have to pay for the renewal term. Your terms do not do that and the section 4.4 does not state that.

Therefore, please will you cancel the invoice and inform AFS that you have done so. We will not counter charge you for the legal work done on our behalf if your company will amend its terms & conditions in order to remove this ambiguity.

We look forward to receiving your confirmation within the next 7 working days.

Regards,

Horace

I had a problem with them - in the end I reported them to Nominet and included all the letters that they had sent me, plus I contacted 1&1 and told them to stick it and not demand money with menaces, I also contacted ConsumerDirect in Swindon of all places because I knew that they have a file on 1&1 which is about 5 inches thick - they told me what to put into a letter to 1&1.

They are actually going against Nominet's rules when they just renew domains without recourse to the customer.

devolution

Unfortunately, Nominet will not act on 1&1 as they are a 'big boy' - even though I have clearly instructed Nominet to act.

I am currently suing 1&1, and am prepared to take both Nominet and 1&1 to the High Court to put an end to their continuing disgraceful practices against customers.

graemel

I recently received similar treatment from 1&1/arvato following my cancellation of all domains with them. They claimed I owed them £9.52, as I had apparently failed to completely cancel the email package part of it. arvato added a further £5 collection fee.

After nearly three months I have finally managed to shake them off, and forced 1&1 to pay me a charge of £45!

I want to make it clear that 1&1/arvato have no substance to their claims and they are simply operating on the consumer's lack of knowledge and fear of legal action. arvato are there to 'support 1&1's arrears process' - the debt has not been sold on to them. Furthermore 1&1 are utterly, devastatingly incompetent. Their "legal department" is not manned by corporate lawyers - they are the employees who can sometimes string a proper sentence together! I would not fear any legal action or CCJ from this bunch of crooks.

Furthermore, the debt collector must halt collection if you dispute the debt.

Here's what I did:

• Initially told arvato that the debt was in error and to report back to the alleged creditor. They told me that they would not unless I could 'prove cancellation'. This part is interesting as 1&1 sent this to my email account that they then erased when I... cancelled the account!
• arvato then came back to tell me that although I had cancelled the domain I had not completely cancelled the email package. I told them that 1&1's T&Cs state that payment will cease once all domains have been removed. Also asked them what the product will do given that the domains are no longer active - can't have emails without a domain. I asked for a description under sale of goods & services act. They told me it was "irrelevant to the outstanding amount"
• Now they told me that I would have to get back to 1&1 to get this information and that they would put my account on hold for 14 days while the debt was in dispute.
• Emailed 1&1 [EMAIL="afs@1and1.co.uk"]afs@1and1.co.uk[/EMAIL] - the agent was a complete waste of space. Get a bunch of pre-prepared text basically saying read the FAQ - as if that constitutes terms and conditions. I clearly stated the sections of the terms & conditions and that I believed their charge to be illegal anyway. Response:

  There is no attempt to cancel the entire account online,
  We do not accept an email as a form of cancellation.
  Again you keep on stating that you are not sure of what we are charging you for.
  It's you instant mail package which you had just cancelled the domain name not the entire package.
  If you have in compliance with our companies procedure you would have cancelled accordingly and settle the outstanding invoice which was addressed to you back in Nov 16, 2009.
  
  If you have any further questions do not hesitate to contact us.

• Did that make any sense to you?
• I wrote a letter to the General Manager stating that all services were to be cancelled:

  I refer to the above account. This is formal notification that I have cancelled all services and accounts with 1and1 Internet Ltd. I require that you remove all personal, contact and payment details from all systems as required by the Data Protection Act 1998.

and

1and1 have or are attempting to contravene the following laws:

• Sale of Goods and Services Act 1982:
  • You are under an obligation to sell and supply goods and services that are as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality:
  • IXXX AhXXd has consistently evaded all my attempts to give me a description of the service you claim to be providing to me. I am not looking for the marketing name you give the product, I am looking for a description.
  • In the absence of such a description I have assumed one that would be commonly accepted - "The ability to send and receive emails". The service you are providing will not work as would commonly be expected. There will be no ability to send or receive emails. This is clear because there are no domains associated with the service. You cannot sell the email package without a domain. The product is clearly not fit for purpose.

• Data Protection Act 1998
  • IXXX XXmed stated that my contact details have been passed to 'AFS'. Upon questioning IXXX AXXXd evaded my questions regarding who or what AFS is and why 1and1 have passed on my contact details. I therefore conclude that 1and1 have illegally used my personal details.

• The Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000
  • you must give consumers clear information including details of the goods or services offered, ... and the consumer's cancellation right before they buy
  • you must also provide this information in writing
  • 1and1 failed to provide me with a durable form of my right of cancellation. 1and1 actively misrepresented their products as annual subscriptions when they are in fact rolling contracts with limited window of cancellation. This was not made clear prior to or following purchase in any way.

In addition, I have repeatedly stated to XXil AXXXd my belief that I have cancelled all packages in full accordance with 1and1's terms and conditions:
"Your account will be automatically charged at the beginning of each registration/billing cycle, for the entire cycle. Registration/billing cycles will continue automatically, except at which time you cancel the package or move the domain(s) from 1&1."

The response to this formal letter to the General Manager?
An email from the agent I was writing to complain about!

Thank you for your letter

In your letter you state that we have not explained to you what you have
registered , I have sent you several mail explaining hat you have
registered an 'instant mail' package and not cancelled the entire
package
You also said that you do not know who AFS are; ARVO Finance Services they act on behalf of 1and1 and they are our debt collectors,
who we refer all the account which are outstanding over a period of
time.

Again you do not make it clear that you want to cancel the account , if
you wish to do so you will need to do the online cancellation or by a
write letter along with a proof of I.D. eg copy of driving licence or
passport
to:
Fax: 0845 076 2202

• Did you get that? Now, I have neither a valid passport or personal access to a fax machine! And why was my letter not accepted as cancellation? Also note that the name of the alleged debt collector does not match that of arvato in either case? At this point I told them I would not accept emails from them, blocked their emails at my mail server and told them to reply by post.
• I then told arvato that 1&1 had claimed that a different agency was collecting for them, and that given the fact that it was impossible to cancel I would require the case to go to the Financial Ombudsman and would report arvato to the FSA .
• All of a sudden, the Collections Manager from arvato took on the case for me and told me there was some "misunderstanding" and that he expected 1&1 to send me a letter detailing a "favourable outcome"
• 1&1 sent a letter by registered mail saying they were prepared to "write-off" the debt as a gesture of "good-will". All I had to do was write a letter requesting cancellation
• So I sent another letter stating that I had already cancelled several times and so was charging them £25 for my time and resources dealing with them. Gave them 2 weeks to provide confirmation of cancellation and the cash.
• [SILENCE]
• Sent another letter, this time with a filled-out (but not stamped) Court Summons to the Sheriff Court (I'm in Scotland BTW) requesting that the court grant payment of £35 and grant an obligation for them to cancel. Sent by registered mail.
• The next day I received a cheque for £45 and a request that I cease court activity along with confirmation of cancellation.
• I am still hassling arvato to explain what on earth this charge is. if I don't get an acceptable reply then I will send a complaint to their regulator - the OFT.

1&1/arvato are a complete joke and a bunch of crooks. Avoid the hassle and steer well clear!