1&1 Domain debtor collectors!!

DaveMacD

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I took out an account with 1&1 a few years back. Never really bothered too much with the site TBH, hardly ever logged into it, forgot the password for the account, and ended up forgetting all about it. Still got a huge volume of emails from 1&1, the usual marketing bumph, so the spam filter ended up catching most of it.

Fast forward to a few months ago, I start getting letters from Arvato Finance informing me of an outstanding debt owed to 1&1 for the automatic renewal of my account. (Apparently, this should have been in August 2010) Now this would be pretty difficult as the credit card I used to pay the initial fee has long since been cut up, so obviously, they were never paid. I contacted 1&1 to query this, to cancel the account, and to call off Arvato, as I did not wish to renew (no reply). Finally managed to get a reply from them (after multiple attempts) around December 2010 merely informing me that to cancel, I had to access the website and follow their procedure.

Eventually managed to fluke my access details, cancelled the account, and thought it was sorted, until the end of last week, when I get another letter from HL Legal & Collections informing me that they were looking to take me to court for the outstanding amount, and giving me a 7 day deadline to settle the account. Unfortunately, this was on a weekend, so I had to make do with emails. I emailed Arvato, and 1&1 informing them that I had not asked for the contract to be renewed, that I had now cancelled the contract, and that it should not be an issue. Got a nice email from 1&1 saying that I should contact the billing dept. (I'd emailed support since they were who had helped me cancel the account in the first place), so emailed them instead. Finally received an email from Arvato today:-

Dear David MacDonald

Regarding your email.

We have been in contact with 1&1 Internet relating to your account query and they have provided us with the following information:

“This account was cancelled on Dec 26, 2010, however the domain name was renewed on 16/08/2010, and customer is fully liable for payment.

Please proceed with collecting payment.”

As we work on the information provided by 1&1 Internet we have been advised that the account was cancelled as of 23rd December however the invoice was raised on 16th August. As stated in 1&1’s terms and conditions, an account must be cancelled prior to an invoice being raised, in order fo no monies to occur.

Due to the fact that your account has been cancelled after the invoice, the balance is still outstanding and you are liable for this payment.

Please note that the termination of your account, will not take effect until the balance has been cleared.

For further information, or to arrange payment, please contact us on telephone number 0870 1258809.

Regards

Harriet Mcqueen

Arvato
Block2
Willerby Business Park
Willerby
United Kingdom
HU10 6FE

Having looked through their terms and conditions (and trawling through the net), I find :-

5.3

The customer agrees to pay for all products, services and features in advance; except when noted otherwise.

Since I never paid in advance, surely that means that the contract was not renewed. I seem to recall an email from 1&1 stating that the website had been suspended in the interim. General opinion on this seems to be that what 1&1 are doing with their rolling renewal is not generally legal. Is this the case? Does the fact that I never requested renewal, and never paid for renewal of the account mean that 1&1 are not playing by the rules?


Nominet also states:-

20 Unless ended earlier under this contract, we will enter your domain name on the register for two years. If we receive your renewal request and fee in the standard format by the deadline we set, and in line with the conditions of this contract generally, you will have the right to enter into a new contract with us on the same standard conditions that we are then offering to people registering new domain names.

Ultimately, the amount is fairly trivial, just over £12 (£7 to 1&1, and £5 to the lawyers) but surely if, by their own T&C's the customer has to pay in advance, then automatically renewing the account and backdating payment is against their own T&C's, and Nominets rules...

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

mwbrown

I had the same problem with 1&1 and ARVATO whereby i "forgot" to cancel 2 domains (1 which i registered and the other my wife had registered) and we totally forgot about them, received letters from ARVATO demanding the money plus £5... emailed both them and 1&1 advising that i didnt renew the domains and they came back with "they automatically renew unless you cancel them!..

I emailed back and forth for a couple of weeks, eventually they said "we sent you emails to advise the domains were due for renewal", to which i replied back that both myself not my wife had received any emails... I requested that they forward the emails that they sent regarding the domain name renewal notices that they claim to have sent, which they couldnt provide.... eventually after about 4 weeks, i got the emails from ARVATO advising that 1&1 had cancelled the invoices as a "gesture of goodwill".

Wont touch 1&1 for domain renewals again after this bad experience... i also know of a couple of other people who have had the same problems.... no renewal of domain notice (or what ever they called it!!) had been received and they couldnt supply a copy (nor could they advise the email address that they claim to have sent it to.....).

regards

Mike

DaveMacD

Emailed them (1&1 and Arvato) re-iterating that I had requested the account closed, and that I had not requested the renewal of the account. Also that I while I am in dispute with 1&1, I will regard any more threatening letters from either Arvato or HL Legal as harassment.

Mupette

I didn't forget to cancel mine a few years ago, followed procedure and i think i had to fax them a wish to cancel, which i did and i also kept the reciept to show they did recieve the fax.

They tried it on via email, and every correspondance i had with them i would enclude the copy of the fax i sent them until they gave up.

DaveMacD

Another email this morning:-

Thank you for your email.

This is to confirm that your account has been successfully cancelled on Dec 26, 2010. However, please note that the ***************.org.uk domain has already been renewed on August 16, 2010 right before you cancel your account.

If an invoice has been raised for domain names before you terminate it will need to be settled even if you no longer require the domains. No refund will be raised for domain names as they have automatically been renewed under your name as they were still active at the time the invoice is raised. Also, it was clearly stated on our Terms and Conditions that all domains registered will be renewed automatically unless you have terminated the account personally right before it is renewed.

TERMS OF CONTRACT: 4. REGISTRATION OF DOMAIN NAME(S) (https://order.1and1.co.uk/xml/order/TcGeneral)

4.4

Once we fulfil your domain order we shall notify you of the successful registration of the domain name(s).

We will host your domain name(s) for the initial pre-paid registration/billing period and for all future registration/billing periods. Unless terminated, at the end of each registration period your domain name will automatically renew for an additional registration period and you further authorise 1&1 to debit your account for the renewal fee associated with such renewal registration period and any related fees or charges. Your account will be automatically charged at the beginning of each registration/billing cycle, for the entire cycle.

8.5

The customer is responsible for contacting the company to ensure that their cancellation request has been received.

Which I responded to with this

As you state, section 8.5, The customer is responsible for contacting the company to ensure that their cancellation request has been received. As already explained, I attempted that, multiple times, with no reply. I can't confirm cancellation if I can't get a response from you. Once again, I re-iterate that at no point did I request you to renew the account, as I was specifically requesting to close the account.

Also, please note the following items from ICANN,

3.7.5 At the conclusion of the registration period, failure by or on behalf of the Registered Name Holder to consent that the registration be renewed within the time specified in a second notice or reminder shall, in the absence of extenuating circumstances, result in cancellation of the registration by the end of the auto-renew grace period (although Registrar may choose to cancel the name earlier).
3.7.5.1 Extenuating circumstances are defined as: UDRP action, valid court order, failure of a Registrar's renewal process (which does not include failure of a registrant to respond), the domain name is used by a nameserver that provides DNS service to third-parties (additional time may be required to migrate the records managed by the nameserver), the registrant is subject to bankruptcy proceedings, payment dispute (where a registrant claims to have paid for a renewal, or a discrepancy in the amount paid), billing dispute (where a registrant disputes the amount on a bill), domain name subject to litigation in a court of competent jurisdiction, or other circumstance as approved specifically by ICANN.
3.7.5.2 Where Registrar chooses, under extenuating circumstances, to renew a domain name without the explicit consent of the registrant, the registrar must maintain a record of the extenuating circumstances associated with renewing that specific domain name for inspection by ICANN consistent with clauses 3.4.2 and 3.4.3 of this registrar accreditation agreement.
3.7.5.3 In the absence of extenuating circumstances (as defined in Section 3.7.5.1 above), a domain name must be deleted within 45 days of either the registrar or the registrant terminating a registration agreement.


As stated in 3.7.5 above, and as excluded in 3.7.5.1,, my account should have been closed automatically upon you not receiving permission to renew. Furthermore, as my credit card (used to register this account) was no longer valid, you could not expect to receive this payment, and the fact that I never furnished you with updated information on this card (because I wished to cancel the account, not renew it) means that you should not have attempted to renew. In any event, as a matter of course, the account should have been terminated within 45 days of the expiry date of the previous contract, as I had attempted to contact yourselves to cancel the account, unless you can supply details of the extenuating circumstances that apply to this situation as in 3.7.5.1 above.

Yours faithfully,
David MacDonald.

Their reply was waiting for me when I got in from work, and reads thus

Dear David MacDonald, (Cust: **********)

Thank you for your email.

Please note that the service was not cancelled, and so the service was renewed. If you would like to dispute this any further, please
contact complaints@1and1.co.uk.



Kind regards
Kimberley Shannon Hawkins
Billing Department
1&1 Internet Ltd.

Short, and to the point Looks like this is going to take a while.

rogmorley

Hi David

I just read your thread, I have had exactly the same e-mails and letters as yourslef. I replied to arvato and got the same reply as yourself word for word. I am about to e-mail them to tell them that they will not be receiving a penny from me.

I have sent about 7 e-mails up to now and I honestly don't think they read them. The two companies work together and if they tried taking you to court they wouldn't have a leg to stand on. I have told them 7 times that I haven't used the web space in over 2 years and 7 times they said that they frozen the web space to get my attention.

Unfortunately I think their threats of legal action work on most people as a lot of us have a lack of legal knowledge. If you think about it if I disappeared tomorrow then would 1&1 continue to charge my account for the next 100 years without my consent? It's rediculous. I was told over the phone that they wouldn't try taking another payment and I cancelled my card as I didn't believe them. They lie about everything.

They are now saying I didn't cancel my contract and I owe them £45 plus £15 late fee. Anyway I'm bored of them now so I'm going to report them to the Office of fair trading and will recycle their future letters. They are a joke, if you need web hosting that Just Host seem really good, they give unlimited web space so you have host multiple sites for something like £50 every 2 years.

Just message them back to say you are reporting them, you’ll probably get an email saying as a measure of goodwill they are writing off the debt which is code for we have tried it on, we know we cannot get anywhere legally so please don’t sue us.

Nemo101

I see more people are having issues. After replying with above 1&1 went quite and that was end of that... Oh except the yearly email reminding me I stilll have an account even though I cancelled it!

DaveMacD

And, without a touch of irony, they emailed me the link to their customer satisfaction survey

Have emailed complaints, so I'll see how it goes. Never thought to add the bit about reporting them, I might save that for the next one...

DaveMacD

Received this in my Inbox while I was at work:-

Dear David MacDonald

We have now been instructed by 1&1 Internet to close this account.

Therefore I can confirm that this account has now been closed with ourselves, and there are no monies outstanding.

Regards

Harriet Mcqueen

Could this be the end??? Nothing from 1&1 though. No telling if this little escapade has damaged my credit rating (not that it was rosy before, but it surely wouldn't have helped). If it has, then this will only be the start of 1&1's woes with me.

Hopefully, a final update:-

Dear David MacDonald, (Customer ID: ********)

Thank you for contacting us.

This e-mail serves as confirmation that the account has now been removed from collections and the balance cleared. Thank you for your patience throughout this process.

If you have any further questions please do not hesitate to contact us.

--
Sincerely,
Dana Cook
Customer Service
1&1 Internet Limited

Thanks for your help folks

DaveMacD

Final twist of irony, received an email from 1&1 today giving me a credit note to the value of £7.03.... Like I'll be spending that any time soon