PCN on Zig-Zag line (Hammersmith and Fulham)

MrChips

Neil_B wrote: »

Just to clear something up. What was the contravention code/description?

The PCN says "Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours"

MrChips

TheBogsDollocks wrote: »

This is DfT guidance to local authorities and may if used well, strengthen your case. As the DfT seem to be implying that lack of signage is likely to cause confusion.

Can you confirm the CPZ sign times?

Thanks for that. I agree there is scope for confusion - however I get the impression from that article that technically I am in the wrong! I thought that timeposts overrule the CPZ hours?

I have driven around the area again since I got the PCN and haven't found the CPZ sign, but the time of operation of the parking bays there is Monday to Saturday 8.30am to 6.30pm.

TheBogsDollocks

I understand it as meaning the zig zags require their own "no stopping" sign and that the single yellow "should be independently signed" with its sign located with the zig zag sign and this applies even within a CPZ. They say that the single yellow need not be signed if the times that apply to it are the same as the zig zag no stopping times.

MrChips

I finally received a response to my appeal:

"Thank you for writing to us about the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

I have carefully considered what you say and all the available evidence, but I do not agree that we should cancel your liability for this PCN.

This PCN was issued because the vehicle was seen parked on a waiting restriction marked by a yellow line.

I regret that he circumstances you describe surrounding the issue of this PCN do not amount to grounds for cancellation. The sign referred to in your letter advise on `School Keep Clear` markings outside of the restricted times. There are two separate parking restrictions operating at this location.

There is a single yellow line restriction on stopping and waiting during controlled hours. Additionally, the `School Keep Clear` markings upgrade this restriction to a total ban on any parking for any purpose at certain times for child safety reasons.

Outside of the times during which the school markings are in force the yellow line restrictions are STILL in operation during the controlled hours of the zone.

Single yellow lines restrictions apply during the same hours as the zone, unless they have a separate sign showing different times; (the only time plates in this area relate to the additional `School Keep Clear` markings NOT the yellow line).

Your vehicles was in controlled parking zone A. Restrictions in that zone apply from 08:30 to 18:30, Monday to Saturday. There are signs at the entrances to the zone that show the controlled hours.

The PCN was issued on 27/03/2009 at 14:51, on a single yellow line which applied until 18:30. During a period of 7 minutes no activity was seen at the vehicle. I am therefore satisfied that the PCN was properly given within the law.

If you wish to pay at the discounted rate of £60, you may still do so, provided we receive your £60 payment within 14 days of the date of this letter. THIS OFFER WILL NOT BE REPEATED. Once these 14 days have expired, the full charge of £120 will become due.

How to take the case further: (if you believe you were legally parked)

1 If you do not pay, we will send a 'Notice to Owner' to the keeper. This form offers the keeper the chance to formally challenge the PCN, or to pay the full charge (by this time it will be too late to take advantage of the discount). If you are not theregistered keeper, let them know what you decide to do.
2 If we still disagree with you, the keeper can take the case to the Adjudication Service. The Adjudicator is independent and his or her decision is binding on both sides."

What do you think my chances are of a successful appeal? It seems that by continuing to appeal, I lose the right to settle the fine at £60...

MrChips

Further info:

Here are two links to pages on Hammersmith & Fulham's borough website. The first shows a map of all the CPZ's. Am I correct in thinking there should be a road sign at the boundary between CPZ's to indicate the restrictions that apply on entering the zone? I am 99% sure that there isn't one on the way into the CPZ in which I got a ticket, travelling the way I did that day.

http://www.lbhf.gov.uk/Images/Borough%20CPZ%20map_tcm21-110485.pdf

The second link indicates what procedure to follow in a CPZ. I quote:

"Single yellow lines apply during the hours shown on the adjacent sign (see example below) . If there is no adjacent sign, the single yellow line will apply during the same hours as the CPZ in which it is located."

The thing is, there was a sign in my case - so surely I am justified in obeying its instructions?

http://www.lbhf.gov.uk/AZofServices/P/49393_Parking_Zones.asp

Neil_B

it's a toughie. i think Bogs' post #14 seems most relevant.

probably up to an Adjudicator to decide.

MrChips

OK, I've decided to appeal on the basis of posts 11 and 14! Wish me luck

MrChips

Here is my appeal - wish my luck.


Dear Sir or Madam,

PCN number: XXX
Vehicle registration number: XXX

I am writing to make a formal appeal with regards the above penalty charge notice. I am making my appeal due to the following reasons: the alleged contravention did not occur.

I parked my car in XXX Road on "Keep Clear" markings. These were clearly stated to be in operation between 8am and 9am and between 3pm and 4.30pm. My car was parked between 2.15pm and 2.55pm and thus outside the prescribed hours of operation.

In response to my initial appeal, I was told that these prescribed hours are intended to be in addition to other waiting restrictions. I contest that this is not clear from the road markings and signage.

The circumstances of my case are that I am alleged to have parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours. Unknown to me at the time, XXX Road is in a Controlled Parking Zone (CPZ). However, the Traffic Signs Manual, Chapter 3 (section 9.17, see below) states that where the Keep Clear marking applies in addition to a prohibition of waiting, "the latter should be independently signed ... even in a controlled parking zone". This is clearly not the case in XXX Road (please see attached photos).

"9.17 Where both the KEEP CLEAR marking and the mandatory sign to diagram 642.2A are used on a road that is also subject to a prohibition of waiting, the latter should be independently signed, with the yellow line to diagram 1017 or 1018.1 running behind the KEEP CLEAR marking (see para 22.25 in Chapter 5). As waiting restriction signs are spaced at approximately 60 m intervals (see para 6.34), it is possible that there might not be such a sign alongside the KEEP CLEAR marking. However, it would be helpful to drivers to provide a sign (except where the restriction is no waiting at any time) as a reminder that waiting restrictions apply during times when the prohibition of stopping does not. The sign could be co-located with diagram 642.2A. This also applies within a controlled parking zone, where upright signs are normally dispensed with (see para 12.2). Where the prohibition of waiting applies only during times that are covered by the stopping prohibition, yellow lines and signs are not needed, except that yellow lines are still required within a controlled parking zone (see para 12.1(a)(i)). The signing and marking of a prohibition of loading should be treated in the same way as the prohibition of waiting."

Notwithstanding the above, with regards to Controlled Parking Zones, Hammersmith & Fulham's own website states that "Single yellow lines apply during the hours shown on the adjacent sign. If there is no adjacent sign, the single yellow line will apply during the same hours as the CPZ in which it is located."

http://www.lbhf.gov.uk/Directory/Transport_and_Streets/Parking/Parking_zones/49393_Parking_Zones.asp

Given that there was an adjacent sign in this case (see photo), whose prescribed hours I followed, I fail to see how I have committed a parking offence.

Finally, while I believe the above reasons are sufficient justification to accept my challenge to this PCN, my journey was such that it was not clear to me that XXX Road is subject to a controlled parking zone. My journey commenced from YYY Road (off ZZZ Road). This is in Controlled Parking Zone 1. Unfortunately it is on the boundary of CPZ 2 and the entry sign to the Zone is positioned such that it is not clearly visible from the junction between YYY Road and ZZZ Road when turning right into ZZZ Road. I therefore did not realise I had entered CPZ 2 and that XXX Road was subject to the applicable waiting restrictions at the time. XXX Road is neither a residential street nor a street with any shops nor is it usually very busy - categories of road that one would normally expect competition for parking and thus the necessity for a CPZ.

In conclusion, given the guidance from H&F's own website, and from the Traffic Signs Manual, the intended waiting restrictions to apply to this part of XXX Road are certainly not clear even if one is aware that it is subject to CPZ restrictions. If one is not aware, as in my case, the scope for confusion is even greater.

Yours faithfully,

Mr Chips

MrChips

I've received a reply already!

NOTICE OF REJECTION OF REPRESENTATION

Thank you for your representation.

I have carefully considered what you say and all the available evidence, but I do not agree that we should cancel your liability for this Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

In our letter of 22/05/09 we clearly outlined our reasons for upholding your PCN. I am satisfied that the sign at the location is adequate and complies with the applicable laws and I am unable to rescind the decision.

Yellow zig-zag lines are located at the entrances to schools and the restriction times exhibited on adjacent time plates to such lines, as shown in the photographs you have provided, indicate the parking restrictions applicable during school term times.

Where there is a yellow line running through or parallel zig-zags yellow lines, as is the case where you parked your vehicle, the restrictions applicable on the yellow line run concurrently with the parking restrictions advertised by zone entry signs and pay and display tickets in the area.

The Highway Code advises that yellow lines simply give an indication that parking restrictions are in force and that appropriate time plates, which are yellow line or parking place specific, or zone entry signs must be consulted to determine the restriction times. If there are no individual time plates adjacent to yellow lines within a controlled parking zone, it means that the yellow line restriction times are the same as the zone restriction times shown by signs both at the entrances to the Controlled Parking Zone and on all the pay and display machines within the zone.

The road in which the vehicle was parked is within Controlled Parking Zone A.
The parking restriction times in zone Q is as follows: Monday - Saturday, 08:30am - 6:30pm.

I am therefore satisfied that the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) was properly given within the law.

Any views on whether I should take it to adjudication. I guess I haven't got anything to lose?

I'm not sure of the relevance of "school term times" as the sign doesn't mention this. My points about the inconsistencies with the guidance on their own website, and Traffice Signs Manual, also haven't been addressed. I'm also not sure of the relevance of "Zone Q" - this zone has nothing to do with anything!

Any help would be really appreciated!

TheBogsDollocks

Push on to adjudication as section 9.17 of the TSM is a good argument. The fact that this section clearly advises that where a no waiting and no stopping restriction are both in force then the yellow line restricted hours should be signed. The reason the DfT have provided this specific guidance is because they obviously believed that not to sign the yellow line (even if in a CPZ) would cause confusion which in your case has turned out to be true.

The council have not attempted at any time to refute the argument of section 9.17. This is because most staff that consider appeals have received !!!!!! all training (trust me I know) in the laws they enforce and they probably are not even aware of the Traffic Sign Manuals.

In your appeal to the adjudicator include that you believe the council are also guilty of procedural impropriety as they have failed to consider your formal representation in the manner required by the secretary of state's statutory guidance in that they have not addressed all appeal points such as the point of section 9.17 of the TSM Chapter 3.