PCN on Zig-Zag line (Hammersmith and Fulham)

MrChips

Hi there.

There is a road near my house which has parking bays on one side and a single yellow line on the other. However, along the whole street there is no sign to indicate the prescribed hours that apply to this yellow line, while on the other side there are signs that indicate the hours that apply to the bays. The only sign on the yellow line side is by some zigzag lines which are painted over the yellow line outside a school which says "no stopping between 8-9am and 3-4.30pm Monday-Friday".

Given this, I parked on the zigzag line from 2-3pm last Friday as it was outside the restricted time indicated and got a PCN.

Is this correct?

In the last week I have done some further research which indicates that this street is in a controlled parking zone which means that the general restrictions apply to the yellow line without signs being necessary. Fair enough, I didn't know this and hold my hands up. But, given the sign explicitly says when I can't stop on the zigzag lines, am I ok to park on it outside of these times, in spite of the controlled parking zone being in operation?

muletman

well depends when the ticket was issued you claim yourself you were parked at 3pm the stopping ban starts at 3pm if the ticket was say 2:15pm then no the ticket is invalid but if that ticket says 3pm then its correct

Neil_B

It's a very good question! The blanket CPZ restriction will be 'no waiting' but the zigs are 'no stopping'. Does it count - honestly don't know!

was there a yellow line as well as the zigs?
-

more importantly to start with - which Council? !!

System

See http://www.kingston.gov.uk/browse/transport_and_streets/parking/on_street_parking/other_restrictions.htm If there is also a single line then there is no parking as well within CPZ hours (assuming that it is a CPZ area).

muletman

under TMA 2004 the entrance of a CPZ should state all restrictions on the road until the CPZ end sign.. no signs are needed within a CPZ but sometimes they are but i would follow the 4ft sign on entrance

TheBogsDollocks

As the Zig Zag restriction has it's own timeplate then the restriction is independent of the Controlled Parking Zone entry sign times.

I would say that even if the zig zag line had no timeplate it should not be controlled by the CPZ sign times (unless the CPZ sign mentions "no stopping as well as "no waiting"). Simply because as Neil B points out they are different restrictions and use different road markings.

I would ask the parking dept to provide you with a copy of the Traffic Regulation Order that enables the zig zag restriction to be enforced. Quite often they are not listed in TRO's as a school keep clear restriction but as "no waiting" or not all.

It's always worth checking before handing over any money.

TheBogsDollocks

muletman wrote: »

under TMA 2004 the entrance of a CPZ should state all restrictions on the road until the CPZ end sign.. no signs are needed within a CPZ but sometimes they are but i would follow the 4ft sign on entrance

More wrong advice......the TMA 2004 has nothing to do with prescribing any signage. That is the remit of the TSRGD 2002 and the DfT.

MrChips

Thanks for all the help so far guys.

To clear up a few of the queries above:
1) The ticket was issued "from 14.44 to 14.51". I got back at 3pm on the dot but by this time there was no "Civil Enforcement Officer" around.
2) The council is Hammersmith and Fulham
3) The zig zags are painted over the single yellow line, so you can see both at that part of the street

From looking at the council website, it seems to me that if there is a timeplate, then this takes precedence over the hours of the CPZ:

http://www.lbhf.gov.uk/AZofServices/P/49393_Parking_Zones.asp

Therefore, I don't see that I broke the rules as I obeyed the timeplate. Is there any significance to the fact that the timeplate said "no stopping" rather than "no waiting"?

MrChips

TheBogsDollocks wrote: »

As the Zig Zag restriction has it's own timeplate then the restriction is independent of the Controlled Parking Zone entry sign times.

I would say that even if the zig zag line had no timeplate it should not be controlled by the CPZ sign times (unless the CPZ sign mentions "no stopping as well as "no waiting"). Simply because as Neil B points out they are different restrictions and use different road markings.

I would ask the parking dept to provide you with a copy of the Traffic Regulation Order that enables the zig zag restriction to be enforced. Quite often they are not listed in TRO's as a school keep clear restriction but as "no waiting" or not all.

It's always worth checking before handing over any money.

Thank you for this advice. Can I just clarify though, as your first paragpraph implies to me that I shouldn't have been issued with a PCN, and your final paragraphs seem to imply "it depends"!

Neil_B

Just to clear something up. What was the contravention code/description?

TheBogsDollocks

From the Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3

9.17 Where both the KEEP CLEAR marking and the
mandatory sign to diagram 642.2A (the No Stopping sign) are used on a
road that is also subject to a prohibition of waiting,
the latter should be independently signed, with
the yellow line to diagram 1017 or 1018.1 running
behind the KEEP CLEAR marking (see para 22.25 in
Chapter 5). As waiting restriction signs are spaced
at approximately 60 m intervals (see para 6.34),
it is possible that there might not be such a sign
alongside the KEEP CLEAR marking. However, it
would be helpful to drivers to provide a sign (except
where the restriction is no waiting at any time) as a
reminder that waiting restrictions apply during times
when the prohibition of stopping does not. The sign
could be co-located with diagram 642.2A. This also
applies within a controlled parking zone, where
upright signs are normally dispensed with (see para
12.2). Where the prohibition of waiting applies
only during times that are covered by the stopping
prohibition, yellow lines and signs are not needed,
except that yellow lines are still required within a
controlled parking zone (see para 12.1(a)(i)). The
signing and marking of a prohibition of loading
should be treated in the same way as the prohibition

of waiting.

This is DfT guidance to local authorities and may if used well, strengthen your case. As the DfT seem to be implying that lack of signage is likely to cause confusion.

Can you confirm the CPZ sign times?