Bulls Vs Bears

lostinrates

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

totally can agree with you here.

doesn't warrant BTL LL's being sleazy and greedy on the whole though doe sit?

Doe sit? Round here deer run

No, I don't think in general it does. Just as not all tenants are 'losers' as commonly touted too.

chaostheory

Wookster wrote: »

What attitude is that? That I don't think the UK is best placed to weather the storm?

So where is the best place to weather the storm? Ireland, Iceland, Switzerland, US, Greece or Spain? Russia, Brazil, Argentina, South Africa, Australia or NZ? There is nowhere to hide.

Martinslovechild

Braveheart100 wrote: »

I had the great privilege and fortune to be born dirt poor. My parents struggled to feed us, when my shoes wore out I often had to fill them with cardboard until money could be found for replacements. Our carpets were thread-bare, my clothes hand- me-downs. Compared to my parents childhood I was fortunate. They were bombed, had no shoes, survived on rations, got little education and lived about 10 to a house.

So, the idea that we have stuff to complain about now is in my view laughable. Even if we are in the worst recession since WW2 I still feel incredibly lucky.

I can see both sides of the argument and completely agree with your sentiments. However, it seems rightfully unfair that people are deeply unhappy that their retirements, futures, amounts of taxation and happiness all hang in the balance due in the main to the actions of others.

Nobody outside of financial circles had heard of 'Structured Investment Vehicles' or 'Collaterised Debt Obligations' just a few years ago. Even the 'Sub-Prime Mortgage' was a new one on most people, so it seems deeply ironic that these products were the catalyst to an economic meltdown that few thought would ever happen.

That's not to say that I believe that people are blameless - some took on far too much credit than they should have done and I lay the blame for this firmly with those individuals. Yes, banks may have offered astronomical amounts to some individuals, but that doesn't mean that this money should have accepted so readily by these people knowing in their heart-of-hearts that they would likely struggle to repay the debt. Whatever happened to 'Risk Profiling' ?

If everybody comes through this and learns to live within their means then it may just have been worth going through this crisis. Somehow, I don't feel that's something which Flash Gordon will agree with me on...

Braveheart100

Martinslovechild wrote: »

I can see both sides of the argument and completely agree with your sentiments. However, it seems rightfully unfair that people are deeply unhappy that their retirements, futures, amounts of taxation and happiness all hang in the balance due in the main to the actions of others.

Nobody outside of financial circles had heard of 'Structured Investment Vehicles' or 'Collaterised Debt Obligations' just a few years ago. Even the 'Sub-Prime Mortgage' was a new one on most people, so it seems deeply ironic that these products were the catalyst to an economic meltdown that few thought would ever happen.

That's not to say that I believe that people are blameless - some took on far too much credit than they should have done and I lay the blame for this firmly with those individuals. Yes, banks may have offered astronomical amounts to some individuals, but that doesn't mean that this money should have accepted so readily by these people knowing in their heart-of-hearts that they would likely struggle to repay the debt. Whatever happened to 'Risk Profiling' ?

If everybody comes through this and learns to live within their means then it may just have been worth going through this crisis. Somehow, I don't feel that's something which Flash Gordon will agree with me on...

Without all the structured thingys none of us would have prospered, we'd be living like we were in the 80's. People just took it too far. Governments and banks are made up of mere mortals and are learning. In the future they'll do it better - governments & banks will learn from their mistakes.

We live and learn and in general we move on and life, for most, gets better.

dopester

Really2 wrote: »

if everyone horded cash to prepare for the worse it makes the "worse" happen quicker and longer IMOH.

That is not to excuse some of the recless things that have been done but if we all did the same finance, risk, reward would all be dead and we would all work in tesco's:(

I was just about to post on another thread "Recession busting suggestions for UK plc" this.. but got cold-feet, as I'm not sure of the drawbacks.

It would have to be carried out near simultaneously in major economies, but I'd like to see a ban of paper money, and no more printing of paper money.

All notes already in issuance can still be spent for 12 months or exchanged for electronic banking credit.

That way all transactions in the economy would have to be carried out electronically like with credit cards, debit cards, BACs, Direct Debit ect, for all investments and deposits, purchases and payments.

Cash hoards would have to be returned back into the system to have any possible productive use. If need be, credits just sat in deposit if that is what the saver wants, or there to be spent, or invested - all done by electronic format.

Also went on for suggestions on how to restore confidence and trust to the banking system, and ways to underpin it, but possibly big-holes in my thinking, which Gen could exploit.

Ideally I'd like to see that FSCS £50K thing - which they couldn't afford to honour for all banks in a wide systematic failure - also supported by a government credit backed scheme, so they would buy anything you instruct them to buy for you with your savings credits. Whether that be a car, house, factory, shares, new business premises - keeping business operating, and people in jobs.. feeding back in to the economy with taxes and revenue.

Still the market itself is the way out of this, where government can only ensure the conditions are there for all the better and new businesses to find their own way, and ideally with new ways of doing things, improvements, bringing about new products, new demand. Slow process though.

kennyboy66_2

Martinslovechild wrote: »

What is so different about the current downturn is that generally, downturns are nearly always caused by high inflation & unemployment.

It is simply not the case that most recessions are caused by high inflation or trying to remedy it. It is a belief skewed by high inflation in the 1970's (and late 80's, early 90's for that matter)

Unemployment is almost always a consequence of recession not the cause of it.

Really2

dopester wrote: »

I was just about to post on another thread "Recession busting suggestions for UK plc" this.. but got cold-feet, as I'm not sure of the drawbacks.

Also went on for suggestions on how to restore confidence and trust to the banking system, and ways to underpin it, but possibly big-holes in my thinking, which Gen could exploit.

Ideally I'd like to see that FSCS £50K thing - which they couldn't afford to honour for all banks in a wide systematic failure - also supported by a government credit backed scheme, so they would buy anything you instruct them to buy for you with your savings credits. Whether that be a car, house, factory, shares, new business premises - keeping business operating, and people in jobs.. feeding back in to the economy with taxes and revenue.

Still the market itself is the way out of this, where government can only ensure the conditions are there for all the better and new businesses to find their own way, and ideally with new ways of doing things, improvements, bringing about new products, new demand. Slow process though.

Good post and it makes sense.
You should not be on this forum.:D

StevieJ

chaostheory wrote: »

So where is the best place to weather the storm? Ireland, Iceland, Switzerland, US, Greece or Spain? Russia, Brazil, Argentina, South Africa, Australia or NZ? There is nowhere to hide.

You forgot Zimbabwe

StevieJ

sockpuppets wrote: »

No more sock puppets please. Cheers

Good to see you have come clean

mr.broderick

sockpuppets wrote: »

No more sock puppets please. Cheers

Is that you mewbs? :cool: