End of the line for Vauxhall if the government refuse to bail them out.

Alan_M_2

I thought the French subsidised their car industry even in more rosy times?

woody252506

themanbearpig wrote: »

They make rubbish cars, and have been doing so for years, so they don't deserve a bailed out.

I stopped reading your reply after that.

I have had my Vauxhall for over 3 years now and its been superb and with 85k on the clock still runs as well as when it had 10k on it. Its more reliable than any Ford or Renault I have had.

To base your argument on your opinion of what is a good car is childish.:rolleyes:

lostinrates

Rochdale_Pioneers wrote: »

Its not just Vauxhall in difficulties - the lack of new car sales across the world is causing major difficulties even for profitable companies like Nissan running the world's most efficient car factory in Sunderland which exports 78% of its output with all the good that does for UK PLC's balance of imports.

We need to make a choice about whether we subsidise our car industry or not. Germany and France have already decided yes, so you can absolutely guarantee that they will be making cars in volume when things pick up again. Noone is suggesting propping up basket cases that would have failed without the crash - LDV haven't made a profit in years, neither had MG Rover who keep being used by the anti's as their role model.

And things will pick up again - people bought cars in their millions before credit was as cheap and bountiful as recently, and will do so again. So do you want a UK industry or not?

Not. Not as it is now.

If money is ging to be invested into manucfactoring what about leading he world with energy efficient cars and indeed technologies? What about buying into something that is more future proof, more sustainable and where the market isn't dominated in reputation at least, by other countries?

lukekelly_2

I'd be deeply unimpressed if taxpayer's money was used to support businesses whose problem is that they're creating too much of a product that no-one wants to buy. The car industry was suffering from overproduction at the height of the boom, today its production capacity is absurd. Car factories are going to close all around the world, the important thing is not to keep churning out unwanted products but to ensure that when people start opening new factories the UK is an attractive place to do so in.

Many of arguments for propping up failing factories boil down to the statement "the factories only exist in the UK because of inertia and once closed no one would open new factories here". In that case keeping open inefficient factories in an unattractive country is an extremely expensive way to paper over cracks.

Wookster

Rochdale_Pioneers wrote: »

And things will pick up again - people bought cars in their millions before credit was as cheap and bountiful as recently, and will do so again. So do you want a UK industry or not?

How do you know things will go back to how they were before? I think we've all accepted that the last 10 years have been heady years, fuelled by cheap credit and reckless lending (for cars as well as houses). Cars are a big ticket purchase and the world has seen 10-15 years of astonishing 'growth.' There are absolutely NO guarantees that car purchases will return to their previous level!

It has been estimated that there is an overcapacity for car production of 20-30% globally, so someone bailing out some car industry somewhere is pouring money down the drain.

Who do you think it is?

Rochdale_Pioneers

lukekelly wrote: »

I'd be deeply unimpressed if taxpayer's money was used to support businesses whose problem is that they're creating too much of a product that no-one wants to buy. The car industry was suffering from overproduction at the height of the boom, today its production capacity is absurd. Car factories are going to close all around the world, the important thing is not to keep churning out unwanted products but to ensure that when people start opening new factories the UK is an attractive place to do so in.

Many of arguments for propping up failing factories boil down to the statement "the factories only exist in the UK because of inertia and once closed no one would open new factories here". In that case keeping open inefficient factories in an unattractive country is an extremely expensive way to paper over cracks.

The factories here are NOT inefficient. Nissan Honda and Toyota have world-leading factories in the UK under direct threat caused by a lack of credit. Its not that peeople don't want new cars, its that they can't finance them.

I agree with you completely about weeding out the over-capacity. Lets weed out the vastly-inefficient French factories. Lets weed out the huge over-capacity in executive vehicles and sports cars coming from Germany. Why on earth would you want to weed out the most efficient factories that produce mass market vehicles for export that we already have?

moneypooh

OK, being a bit naive here but why don't they sell their assests first, we see thousands of cars 'in car parks' all over the country?? Normal businesses have to do this why not the car industry? Why can't we see the 50-75% sales like retailers??
don't shoot, just a thought...

itsnever2lateisit?

Rochdale_Pioneers wrote: »

Its not just Vauxhall in difficulties - the lack of new car sales across the world is causing major difficulties even for profitable companies like Nissan running the world's most efficient car factory in Sunderland which exports 78% of its output with all the good that does for UK PLC's balance of imports.

We need to make a choice about whether we subsidise our car industry or not. Germany and France have already decided yes, so you can absolutely guarantee that they will be making cars in volume when things pick up again. Noone is suggesting propping up basket cases that would have failed without the crash - LDV haven't made a profit in years, neither had MG Rover who keep being used by the anti's as their role model.

And things will pick up again - people bought cars in their millions before credit was as cheap and bountiful as recently, and will do so again. So do you want a UK industry or not?

Germany and France have a car industry to subsidise. There isn't a British Car industry anymore, only a car industry in Britain.

The use of French and German taxpayer € makes more sense, because Renault/PSA/Daimler/BMW/VW will in future pay taxes back to those taxpayers, not just income tax, but corporation tax on future profits. In the UK IF taxpayers money was used those companies would repay (by way of corporation tax) to the governments of Germany/USA/Japan/India/China. IMHO that is much harder to justify.

Also helping out any one manufacturer skews the market, to the detriment of all other companies

woody252506

Rochdale_Pioneers wrote: »

The factories here are NOT inefficient. Nissan Honda and Toyota have world-leading factories in the UK under direct threat caused by a lack of credit. Its not that peeople don't want new cars, its that they can't finance them.

I agree with you completely about weeding out the over-capacity. Lets weed out the vastly-inefficient French factories. Lets weed out the huge over-capacity in executive vehicles and sports cars coming from Germany. Why on earth would you want to weed out the most efficient factories that produce mass market vehicles for export that we already have?

Good point.

If the government do decide to bail out and help Vauxhall and any others then they need to be more stern in there approach and learn from the mistakes (BIG ONES!!) they made when doing this with the banks.

They need to commit them legally to investing/researching/producing more climate friendly, efficient vehicles as a result of the government helping out.

Its a shame they didnt do such a thing with the banks in terms of all this bonus culture. They should have gone in and said they would only help if all this was stopped here and now!!!:mad:

kennyboy66_2

chopperharris wrote: »

Car last longer now than they did then , perhaps in built obselesence(sp) needs to be reintroduced.

This would be the ideal time for a more indepth mot system like the japanese have to create more sales.

As do many mass produced goods, despite (including cars) falling in relative price.

Equally however people can barely top their own oil up these days, never mind maintain a car. People do however like to drive new cars, and will continue to have that want - now they may have to save a little more to afford it than in the past.

The idea though that the car industry was wholly supported by people MEWing is simply laughable.