End of the line for Vauxhall if the government refuse to bail them out.

ad9898_3

Rochdale_Pioneers wrote: »

then when the market picks up again

This sounds like 'when the housing market picks up again'. Just like the housing market, the money to 'pick the industry' back up again no longer exists, it was funded by mewing and easy credit, those days are long gone.

Really2

Remember this.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=1503623&highlight=really2+vauxhall

Really2 wrote: »

Saab are in administration. Could it be vauxhall?

Conflict wrote: »

Vauxhall are about the most profitable part of GM, so no. They are very very safe, if anything they will be bought by someone soon to get them out of GM - so expect the Chinese to own them within a year :mad:

I could not see how it was going to be anybody else with GM as it is and the Saab saga.
It is a reflection on the parent companys weekness not the UK manufacturing.

kennyboy66_2

ad9898 wrote: »

I think, as with houses, credit is required to buy a new car in most cases, mewing and easy credit led to a boom in new car registrations, these are likely to fall back, permanently. The amount of newish cars on the road these days (less than 4 years old) is huge compared to 10-20 years ago.

There were more new cars sold in the UK in 1988 or 1989 than there were in 2008.

That after 20 years of economic growth, growth in population and the fairly hefty increase in number of cars on the road.

There are about 33 million cars on the road in the UK, I find it difficult to believe that there won't be 2.0 - 2.3 million new cars each year from 2011 onwards.

itsnever2lateisit?

Rochdale_Pioneers wrote: »

We face a simple choice. Bail out Vauxhall and keep manufacturing their cars here. Or don't bail out Vauxhall, watch it close whilst subsidised Opel keeps going, then when the market picks up again find ourselves driving Vauxhall or Opel badged cars made in Germany. THEN you lot complaining about a lack of british industry will complain about a lack of british industry.

Yes, there was overcapacity in the car industry - thats not the debate. The question is are you willing to provide the subsidies needed to keep manufacturing in the UK? The French and germans will, so either we do as well or we watch every car plant in the UK close and spend the rest of our lives driving imported cars.

Vauxhall's are in the most part rebadged Opels
ALL the engineering is done in Germany
The Corsa is made in Spain
The Insignia is made in Germany
only the Astra is made here, and that is due to be replaced in 2010, so good opportunity to end production in Ellsmere Port when the current model is phased out

Oh and a few vans are assemble in Luton with Vauxhall/Renault/Nissan badges

chewmylegoff

Rochdale_Pioneers wrote: »

We face a simple choice. Bail out Vauxhall and keep manufacturing their cars here. Or don't bail out Vauxhall, watch it close whilst subsidised Opel keeps going, then when the market picks up again find ourselves driving Vauxhall or Opel badged cars made in Germany. THEN you lot complaining about a lack of british industry will complain about a lack of british industry.

Yes, there was overcapacity in the car industry - thats not the debate. The question is are you willing to provide the subsidies needed to keep manufacturing in the UK? The French and germans will, so either we do as well or we watch every car plant in the UK close and spend the rest of our lives driving imported cars.

i don't believe that the choice is that simple. maybe all which are choosing is which brand of car is manufactured here.

i.e. at the moment for ever 100 cars, say 70 are imported, are 30 made here. say 5 of them are vauxhall.

if vauxhall collapses maybe that just becomes 30 still made here but no vauxhalls, as the other manufacturers take up the slack (or more appropriately, cut their production by less, accordingly).

vauxhall going bust does not necessarily equal fewer cars manufactured in the UK, or fewer jobs in UK car manufacturing, in my view. the car plants are designed to produce cars consummate to demand fuelled by liberally available cheap credit. those circumstances are unlikely to return (at least for a generation).

why lend public money to support one unprofitable brand, when the alternative is that vauxhall collaspes and better placed companies who don't need £1.5bn of public money take its market share.

Cannon_Fodder

But if the subsidy is so large as to cost more than paying the employees benefits, whats the point? You have to tax highly to recoup the subsidy.

Making things for the sake of it, funding their purchase for the sake of it...isn't that what got us where we are now, to a degree?

If a business does not have a viable customer base it should go under.

And this isn't just applicable to the car industry. Lots of jobs are overpaid, or another way of looking at it - employees need to get "overpaid" because of the expense of living in this (and some other) country.


It seems to come back houses, funnily enough;

Employees, especially UK, but also other countries, struggle to find the money to have a house, push for wages that price their end-products out of the market - then the same people MEW to buy an expensive product (often cars, but also others), that is partly/only expensive because of their labour costs...

Circularity, or what?

So, in 3 years or so, when unemployment has been high enough for workers to accept some relatively low salaries, and house prices have dropped sufficiently for the low salary not to matter so much, and low salaries deter mothers from seeking a job because child-care costs are more than their low salary, so fewer employees will fight for the same number of jobs, allowing some to push for a higher salary, they can then outbid others on a house, so their neighbour pushes for a pay rise, and away we go again...

UNLESS we break the cycle.

Fix a minimum mortgage LTV; salary multiple/affordability at sensible level; single income basis only, EVER.

Other income, if they choose to have one - as they might decide to be stay-at-home parent, goes on pension/luxuries/savings, thereby avoiding indebtedness.

Buy want we need, not want. Make products that are durable instead of throw-away. Stop pushing for ever higher growth, its not sustainable - not in eco-speak - but in practical terms.

chopperharris

kennyboy66 wrote: »

There were more new cars sold in the UK in 1988 or 1989 than there were in 2008.

That after 20 years of economic growth, growth in population and the fairly hefty increase in number of cars on the road.

There are about 33 million cars on the road in the UK, I find it difficult to believe that there won't be 2.0 - 2.3 million new cars each year from 2011 onwards.

Car last longer now than they did then , perhaps in built obselesence(sp) needs to be reintroduced.

This would be the ideal time for a more indepth mot system like the japanese have to create more sales.

chewmylegoff

chopperharris wrote: »

Car last longer now than they did then , perhaps in built obselesence(sp) needs to be reintroduced.

This would be the ideal time for a more indepth mot system like the japanese have to create more sales.

better to just remove all the uninsured, unMOTed, untaxed vehicles driven by unlicenced drivers first.

i'd rather see £1.5 billion spent on that.

avantra

This is madness, the hens come to roost, I remember reading a good article int the independent that put things in perspective.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/hope-for-specialist-car-manufacturers-1634560.html

Rochdale_Pioneers

Its not just Vauxhall in difficulties - the lack of new car sales across the world is causing major difficulties even for profitable companies like Nissan running the world's most efficient car factory in Sunderland which exports 78% of its output with all the good that does for UK PLC's balance of imports.

We need to make a choice about whether we subsidise our car industry or not. Germany and France have already decided yes, so you can absolutely guarantee that they will be making cars in volume when things pick up again. Noone is suggesting propping up basket cases that would have failed without the crash - LDV haven't made a profit in years, neither had MG Rover who keep being used by the anti's as their role model.

And things will pick up again - people bought cars in their millions before credit was as cheap and bountiful as recently, and will do so again. So do you want a UK industry or not?