Working women almost certainly caused the credit crunch

Jennifer_Jane

lostinrates wrote: »

As the daughter of a feminist, I sympathise, and agree with some of what you say...but as I said above, my great grandmother did work alongside her husband, and her daughter (old enough to be your mother ) was very, very active in local politics in her country. Fewer people alround had higher education in fact, but it did happen. My mother did, she's older than you, as would be my MIL, who was a barrister.

Education doesn't always have to lead to 'work', it can lead to personal fulfilment, and an education thatcontinues informally but no less actively or successfully through out life: employed or otherwise. A ..lets say cleaner as it seems to have drawn the 'demeaning' comments in this thread...a cleaner can, if he or she so chooses, also have a post grad understanding of a subject that takes her fancy, or simply be well read with a breadth of knowledge: for personal fulfilment if nothing else.

Also, although the rather silly piece centres on this, it doesn't haveto be man /woman issue, but more a family one. If a father wants to 'stay home' and be a fll time parent and a mother wants to work that also seems reasonable. If both want to work and can afford child care etc, also fine.

Thanks for the reply, which is appreciated. What I was posting, however, was the consciousness at the time (per Betty Frieden's "The Feminine Mystique" and Germaine Greer's "The Female Eunuch"). My own
anecdotal quote was just typical of what was happening in the '60's. My mother left school at 13, my elder sister at 14. Becoming a Barrister (Doctor, whatever) was possible, but you have to agree there are more female barristers/doctors etc now than then, yet women haven't suddenly become cleverer.

My mother was 11 when women over 21 were allowed to vote. I am glad and grateful that your grandmother was someone who helped the process of female emancipation.

Jen
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Mrs_Bones

I've never understood, this argument against women working. Having done my family history, nearly all the women in my family have worked at least from the 1700's and that is also after having children. In some instances the women then were earning more then their husbands. Working women and two income families are nothing new, it was maybe partly a class thing but there was always some that worked and some that didn't, neither is right or wrong, it what works best for a family.
What changed is peoples expectations of what they should have, so we ended up with 2 income families needing goverment top ups to live at a level some people thought was a right.


I had always worked full time since leaving school, and Ok my job was not a brilliant one but I enjoyed doing it. Same as everyone I use to dream if I had time and money to have a break from work, I could do allsorts, travel, cook, study etc. If I had won the lottery I would have left work, but would still have wanted to do something in the work line, but as a business for myself.

Well ill health gave me my break from work, but I learnt two lessons.

1) Never never live your live for your work, because no matter how many extra hours you put in etc, once you can not do you job, your forgotten about.

2) Spare time is only fun if you have your health.


After never not working and being brought up with a strong work ethic, I have now ended up feeling like a second class citizen. I miss seeing people, I miss feeling like I'm doing something worthwhile, I don't have the energy to do the things I use to day dream about at work and I'm just so fed up and angry with myself most of them time.

Work of some kind is important but only work that fits your purpose, wether thats raising your children, funding your live style, living your dreams or just plain basic working to meet your needs and survive. Just make sure you have a life outside of your work too.

Cleaver

Jennifer_Jane wrote: »

I am glad and grateful that your grandmother was someone who helped the process of female emancipation.

Is the 'process of female emancipation' something to do with hair straightening? I treated Mrs Cleaver to some ceramic GHDs, so I've contributed to that process too.

Jennifer_Jane

Well, so long as she's looking pretty and has got the dinner on - that's all that matters really!

Jen
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Jennifer_Jane

I loved your post, Mrs Bones. Summed up a lot of my thinking too, and I'm sorry that you've been suffering from ill health. Agreed with all you said.

Jen
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andrina_nightshade

harrup wrote: »

With all due respect - if this is how you regard women raising a family i.e " sitting about the house " ....then you still have a lot to learn.

As to whether you will make a more positive contribution to society in becoming a doctor vs. baking carrot cakes - well, that depends. Will you be a dedicated, engaged, focused doctor? Or a sloppy, dismissive, arrogant one whose main impetus for work is money and status?

If it's the latter you might want to reconsider on the carrot baking and ironing. A good carrot cake is hard to find - a sloppy part-time doctor not so much.

I didn't say those things because I feel that's all women do at home. I was merely picking two things at random. Ironing certainly isn't a "work for five minutes and spend the rest of the day watching TV" task. At least, if it's done properly. And baking is also very skilled - it takes years to get these things right.

The point I'm actually trying to make is that I feel I have a lot to give. I've spent years doing in-depth studies in science, I've juggled a job with school and uni, and worked hard to hone my knowledge and skills in these areas. I shouldn't be expected to toss those aside just because one day I'll have a family.

And as for the implication that I'm only in it for money or status... This shows a very naive idea of medicine. Working 50+ hours per week, going maybe 12 hours without sitting down or even grabbing something to drink, watching patients you've developed a relationship with deteriorate and die, knowing there's nothing you can do to help them, and after all that, getting verbally abused by drunken patients in A & E... Not to mention the constant reminder that someone's life is in your hands, and having to live with crushing guilt if you do make a mistake. And it takes years for you to get the big bucks people automatically think of when they the word doctor. I can think of plenty of others jobs where I'd earn that salary without being put through the emotional wringer every day.

Sometimes it can be hard to come across well on the Internet, so I do apologise if you felt that I was disrespeting stay-at-home mothers (or even stay-at-home fathers, for that matter). But I hope that you'll believe when I say that I don't want to be one of those "only in it for the money" type doctors. I want to be one of those "dedicated, engaged, focused" doctors, because I've met, and been treated by, enough of the other sort to have the same level of contempt for them as you have.

tru

Jennifer_Jane wrote: »

That was never what we wanted, we wanted men to be equal in this, not simply doing chores handed out by women, but thinking pro-actively what was required to run the home.

It was supposed to be liberation for men too, that they would no longer have the worry of being the primary wage earner.

Jen
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:T :T :T

Trouble is, in the 80's everyone got greedy. We'd come far enough for it to be acceptable for the women to go back to work at the end of their maternity leave, but NOT far enough for it to be acceptable for the man to stay home with the baby. Resulting in both parents working, being able to afford to pay more for a house/car/holiday/whatever and so pushing the prices of EVERYTHING up. Great, except now it means that parents both work because they HAVE to - neither mum or dad gets to choose to stay home because everything is so expensive.

Shame that the majority of feminists like Jennifer_Jane were practically ignored, while a handful of the 'I-hate-men-and-we-don't-want-to-be-equal-we-want-to-overtake-men' brigade were screaming their stupid rants to everyone. Made proper feminists look like they were anti-men too, and that's not the case at all.

Jennifer_Jane

tru wrote: »

:T :T :T

Trouble is, in the 80's everyone got greedy. We'd come far enough for it to be acceptable for the women to go back to work at the end of their maternity leave, but NOT far enough for it to be acceptable for the man to stay home with the baby. Resulting in both parents working, being able to afford to pay more for a house/car/holiday/whatever and so pushing the prices of EVERYTHING up. Great, except now it means that parents both work because they HAVE to - neither mum or dad gets to choose to stay home because everything is so expensive. snip.

Yes, sums up my current thoughts too!
Jen
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dopester

I'm neutral on the subject - let the individual do what they want to do.

I'm not neutral on it being daft that a couple have to both work full-time and secure good wages to afford to buy a basic roof over their heads, and the problems we see now as one or both lose their jobs, with fewer employment opportunities out there, and pressures on wages.

Even though The Feminine Mystique was published in the 1960s, the major move out of the household for women began in the last depression. It was then, for the first time in peacetime, that women became deeply involved as participants in the cash economy.

It is for this reason that the sector of apparel industry that focused upon women's clothes did better than the one that focused upon men's clothes.

As women got out of the house, this increased the market for household appliances that eased cleaning jobs, and made it easier to wash clothes, get dinner on the table, and so forth.

The number of refrigerators, washing machines, vacuum cleaners, irons, toasters, coffee makers, and radios went way up during the depression. Appliances we now take for granted as fixtures of the house were introduced into the household during the last depression.

Not saying women invented all the above, just that that more women entering the workplace brought about many other businesses to meet the change. The woman who invented the dishwasher.. that is one of my all-time favourite devices.

dopester

Cleaver wrote: »

Is the 'process of female emancipation' something to do with hair straightening? I treated Mrs Cleaver to some ceramic GHDs, so I've contributed to that process too.

Do you know what GHD stands for? Probably you do. I didn't until recently when was asked, and guessed correctly. Expensive gear, but women seem to love them.