How our system works

paintz

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Waterways_2

Nice to know how it works. The bottom line is:

1. What are the running costs compared to oil?

2. What are the running costs compared to LPG?

3. What are the running costs compared to natural gas?

4. What are the running costs compared to a ground sourced heat pump?

I doubt if the ASHP would ever remotely approach natural gas.

mech_2

paintz wrote: »

no new build in the uk by 2016 is going to be allowed with a gas supply

I think that's rather unlikely.

I doubt if the ASHP would ever remotely approach natural gas.

Maybe but like i said this resource is a fossil fuel and is controlled by the Russian and Ukraine countries.

Britain gets most of its gas from the North Sea - either our own or Norwegian or Dutch gas.. Most of the new import capacity is envisaged to be LNG imports - much of which will probably be from African states or the Middle East. We had very little exposure to Russian/Ukranian gas dispute, as can be seen by looking at UK spot gas prices over the last few months.

albyota

yep this is true, but a lot of people don't want to believe it...and carry on moaning about their gas bills and not knowing what the prices are going to be like next winter, there is loads of gas and oil left.... but it is becoming more and more costly to get it out of the sea / ground, therefore we will see big increases again, fossil fuels are becoming frowned upon for its Co2 emmissions, and yes we know generating electric at the moment is worse due to the coal / gas turbines but as and when.. more and more renewable technologies start feeding through...wind, tidal, PV etc..MCHP systems, gas will probably be taxed out of competition,
my projected all electric total fuel heating, lighting, cooking, Hot water etc..cost for sept 08 - sept 09 is around the £840 mark, thats because of loads of wall / loft insulation, 20mm DG windows, CFL's and the ASHP water heater. I had to be convinced first and then had to convince the OH, no looking back now.:j

albyota

four bed 210 m2 UFH 8.5 kW ASHP boiler

mech_2

paintz wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by paintz
no new build in the uk by 2016 is going to be allowed with a gas supply

I think that's rather unlikely.

I think you need to look into the Kyoto agreement as gas and the heating systems that use gas produce more CO2.

Look up the PER of some of the emerging gas-fired heat pumps. If we're looking to the future this is what I would concentrate on. New build is a bit of a diversion really, because to meet any meaningful targets existing housing stock will have to be considered. Most already have a gas supply. But switching 20 million households to electrical heating, even with heat pumps, will require massive investment in electricity generating capacity. And don't forget, a lot of the green car crowd want to swith to electricity too. The nuclear industry won't even be able to replace the old reactors in the timescale we're talking about here. This new capacity would be fossil fuelled. There isn't even a viable alternative, let alone an affordable one.

The government is pushing all the local authorities to use renewable energy in there new build schemes to achieve the Code of sustainable home level 3 and 4. Gas will start to be used less and less in the future. We have 8 local authority housing associations all looking to trial our system! Then why would they be doing this if they could still use gas, oil or LPG systems. The future for new build is renewable not fossil fuel. And as i'm a builder/developer and speak to a lot of merchants and read all the latest press releases on all heating systems it seems funny all the big companies in the plumbing industry are pushing there own form of renewable system away from gas, oil or LPG. They must know something that we don't ?????????????????????????

I see, so you're basically on here to flog your product. I believe that is against forum guidelines. You are hardly contributing on an impartial basis.

Maybe but like i said this resource is a fossil fuel and is controlled by the Russian and Ukraine countries.
Britain gets most of its gas from the North Sea - either our own or Norwegian or Dutch gas.. Most of the new import capacity is envisaged to be LNG imports - much of which will probably be from African states or the Middle East. We had very little exposure to Russian/Ukranian gas dispute, as can be seen by looking at UK spot gas prices over the last few months.

And how much gas is left ??? Not much. I think you might see a few nuclear power station popping up over here????? The future is electric if you like it or not

Nuclear has its own problems of resource exhaustion, so it's not really a reliable solution to rising energy prices. Nuclear's long lead times and the small contributions renewable technologies seem capable of at present mean that most of our electricity will continue to be fossil fuelled for the forseeable future. By which I mean at the very least the next decade.

I think the UK's most significant remaining fuel resource will prove to be underground coal gasification. Most of our remaining coal is unmineable; it's either too deep or it's under the North Sea or both. The most efficient way to exploit it would not be in power stations which dump half their heat into the countryside.

albyota

Gas fired heat pumps are definately on the list for old stock replacement heating systems along with gas powered micro combined heat power systems coming online later this year and being marketed by Npower or one of the Utility co's, I agree, I agree with a lot of what your saying including the accusation of flogging his own product, I think there is naturally a lot of sceptism of anything new, but so there was to most of the technology we use today, nothing will happen very quickly, but it will either be the stick or the carrot approach from governing bodies, more like the stick...

Cardew

Mech,
Your post above saved me the trouble!

Analysing the long term energy requirements of GB Ltd is way above my pay grade, but all I have read indicates that the main problem over the next decade or two is getting sufficient generating capacity to cope with current(sorry) predicted loads, without droves of gas and oil heated households switching to electricity.

My concern between the people flogging systems and those fired with enthusiasm for all things ‘heat pump’ is getting some quantifiable figures on saving, and weighing that against the cost of installation.

I believe the average household spends about £700pa on gas.

I have seen nothing to persuade me that an ASHP system will, on average, have lower running costs for CH and HW than gas. – even the servicing issue is debateable.

For many(most?) people a warm air system will not be acceptable, a heat source in each room would be mandatory; and it leaves the problem of heating domestic hot water.

So a Air/water system will be required. With low water temperatures produced by the ASHP, oversize radiators/under-floor heating are required with a BIG thermal store and boosting by an immersion heater.

Little has been mentioned about the cost of installing such a system, but would £10,000* be unreasonable???

Even the most optimistic enthusiast of heat pumps would surely not claim more than £200pa* off a gas bill(I personally doubt any savings) – so a long payback time!!

*If you dispute my ‘wet finger’ guess. Let us have yours!

albyota

We invented this system and couldn't take it any further as we needed "backing and were also frightened of having it stolen off us. So sorry if you think i'm trying to be a salesman but we have had to get help to get in and show the housing associations. I'm not going to mention to much now as i don't want to be kicked off here as all i'm trying to do is show people how we have developed this from an idea into work in progress".

Paintz, please stop..... your giving ASHP a bad name already, this technology has been around for years, its not new.... and you did not Invent it, there are oodles of companies producing these systems, worcester bosch have just employed a thousand staff to help in manufacturing... by the way, the way your system has been connected surely proves none of you had a clue what you were doing otherwise your costs would be lower..

paintz

the way your system has been connected surely proves none of you had a clue what you were doing otherwise your costs would be lower..

Really and you really looked at the fact the costs we had were on existing radiators and not with over sized rads or under floor.

Then why would it still be in production and not out yet because it is still being developed more. just wait.

Costs of system from OWL meter on the economy 7 tariff are as follows.

This day £1.2389
Last day £2.1336
This Week £1.2412
Last Week £13.852
This Month £62.355
Last Month £80.110
This Qtr £142.46
Last Qtr £68.797
This YR £142.46
Last Yr £68.797
Total to date £211.26

(work the maths out !!!!!! albtoya being the coldest winter compared to your figures)


Please note link to property so you can see the size. All radiators have not been upgraded to account for delta t at 35 degrees.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-...ON%255E2746 7

Originally a Baxi Duo combination boiler used to size rads. We have trialed this and not upgraded system just connected to existing and tested.

This system would be even more efficient if radiators were increased or underfloor heating used.

We have sold property in 4 weeks.

Regards

Mark



keep you eyes peeled in the plumbing mags altoya it will be there soon

see ya

albyota

Is it a Air to water heat pump?, does it heat water to 55 degrees?, then its not that new mitsi daikin etc... all have them