Unions protest because contractors are using foreign workers at power station.

leveller2911

Cleaver wrote: »

I wrote a reply to this explaining that probably 30 to 50% of the people working in my role are either from the EU, North America, Asia and Australia but I don't really feel I need to justify my argument. I've recently moved in to a more substantive post, but my contracts in the past were often 'applied for' by people from all over the globe. It meant that I kept on my toes, ensured I was as best qualified and experienced as I could be and worked hard to compete. I welcomed the competition: best person for the job. I knew that companies would take on the best person they could at the cheapest price possible, so it was a very level playing field for me.

Mrs Cleaver works in the office side of the construction industry for a massive company. The site managers there are regulary heard to be saying that they'd love to take on more British workers on their site but, as someone else has pointed out, a lot of the EU nationals turn up early, rarely call in sick, don't complain, work very hard and are often model employees. Employing them is nothing to do with pay (the company is a huge FTSE listed company and could not get away with changing pay rates on a whim), it's a choice as to the type of workforce they want.

It is to do with pay Cleaver, a lot of companies employ on a self-employed basis so can dictate rates through sub contract.I agree with the point about "sickies" but you dont find that with sub contract, No work= No pay so people dont take sickies.

In the "white collar" world it might be the case , jobs and technologies evolve, in the construction industry its not like that, a wall is a wall, its not rocket science to build it, once its up thats it.

omelette451

leveller2911 wrote: »

"NOT being paid less than British workers " Absolute TOSH , from my 1st hand experience (NOT hearsay) Bricklayers were being paid about £170 per day, influx of eastern European brickies willing to work for £80 per day, British brickies all laid off, European brickies taken on.......

leveller2911 wrote: »

in the construction industry its not like that, a wall is a wall, its not rocket science to build it, once its up thats it.

So you've contradicted your own argument. If people are willing to do an unskilled job for £80 it stands to reason that logically speaking that's the going wage for the job, so the previous one (which I note is more than double) was artificially inflated. If British workers consider it 'below them' to work for the going wage, why don't they get a better job somewhere else? Answer: because they can't be bothered getting the qualifications needed to do so. Similarly, I asked in my first post why the British don't often go overseas to find work... Answer: either they can't be bothered or they believe that they shouldn't because they're better than everyone else (which by definition is xenophobia, by the way) and that the work will come to them (simple complacency). If people want more than the minimum wage they should make an effort to go out and find a better job, not hope they can stay doing whatever they are currently doing. If asked, most Poles don't envisage themselves doing low-skilled work forever; they say it's simply to make money until they find something better.

leveller2911 wrote: »

Can you please remind me what exactly was so xenophobic and racist with the OP ????Its people like you who play the race card with any excuse that are the worse thing about this country now, when anyone wishes to give a point of view that doesn't agree with yours they are either racists or xenophobes.

I didn't say that the OP was in any way racist or xenophobic, I said that the union itself was, and I stand by my argument. Unions are there to protect all shop-floor staff and imo should not incite intolerance based solely on the provenance of a particular section of staff.

leveller2911

omelette451 wrote: »

So you've contradicted your own argument. If people are willing to do an unskilled job for £80 it stands to reason that logically speaking that's the going wage for the job, so the previous one (which I note is more than double) was artificially inflated. If British workers consider it 'below them' to work for the going wage, why don't they get a better job somewhere else? Answer: because they can't be bothered getting the qualifications needed to do so. Similarly, I asked in my first post why the British don't often go overseas to find work... Answer: either they can't be bothered or they believe that they shouldn't because they're better than everyone else (which by definition is xenophobia, by the way) and that the work will come to them (simple complacency). If people want more than the minimum wage they should make an effort to go out and find a better job, not hope they can stay doing whatever they are currently doing. If asked, most Poles don't envisage themselves doing low-skilled work forever; they say it's simply to make money until they find something better.



I didn't say that the OP was in any way racist or xenophobic, I said that the union itself was, and I stand by my argument. Unions are there to protect all shop-floor staff and imo should not incite intolerance based solely on the provenance of a particular section of staff.

Bricklayers are NOT unskilled they serve a 3 yr apprenticeship.My comment regarding comparing the construction industry with more dynamic ,technological and financial industries which fast moving and evolving whereas the construction industry isnt ..Bricklaying,joinery etc are skilled jobs but they are not dynamic so they can't move ,evolve like other industries.We have some amazing craftsmen in this country, getting fewer each year but they are still around and VERY skillful.


You say that "why British people don't go abroad to work is because they can't be bothered or they belive they shouldn't have to because they are better than everyone else(which by defianition is xenophobic)and that the work will come to them (simple complancency)"........

That a very sweeping statement,im not even gonna bother replying to that rubbish,its like saying "hitler was evil therefore all germans are" obviously untrue...as for saying unions are xenophobic and racist is rubbish, how many court cases,unfair dismissal cases etc have been fought by unions on behalf of all ethnic groups, so who are they being racist against?????:rolleyes:

in 2008 100,000 people left the UK most of them would be working abroad.......

omelette451

leveller2911 wrote: »

Bricklayers are NOT unskilled they serve a 3 yr apprenticeship.

I didn't say that, you did. If, as you said, "it's not rocket science," why is there a three year apprenticeship? And if it's necessary to have such qualifications, how come so many people are, as you seemed to imply, getting jobs without them?

Bricklaying,joinery etc are skilled jobs but they are not dynamic so they can't move ,evolve like other industries.We have some amazing craftsmen in this country, getting fewer each year but they are still around and VERY skillful.

It may not be as dynamic an industry as, say, IT, but it will still suffer if it doesn't keep evolving, or if people in it get complacent. As for the craftsmen, this goes back to earlier posts which argued about what can give British staff a competitive edge: if they truly are particularly skilled, and I don't doubt your authority in saying that they are, surely this is their advantage over the competition? If they're not seeing any benefits from having such skills they're obviously not in the job that makes the best use of them. It's up to them to seek out a job that will make the best use of their skills, in exactly the same way as someone would in the 'more dynamic industries' that you talk about. The market works precisely by rewarding those who have 'that little bit extra'.

how many court cases,unfair dismissal cases etc have been fought by unions on behalf of all ethnic groups, so who are they being racist against?????

If you read my original post you'll see that I actually commended the TUC for its policies and the action it takes against discrimination. What I said was that in this particular case the GMB union seems to have abandoned this policy in order to protest against foreign-born staff.

in 2008 100,000 people left the UK most of them would be working abroad.......

In fact the majority are people retiring to sunnier climes such as France and the Spanish costas, or marrying foreign nationals and taking dual citizenship, but I take your point.

bubblesmoney

are having families just a british tradition??? i thought it was a world wide thing to have families. migrants have families too. initially when they come they might be alone till they have a stable job and home and they do move into rental homes with their families. many people have to start of with shared accomodation in the initial days.

when migrants are single isnt it natural they might live in shared accomodation to cut costs especially if they dont have family support to fall back on in a new country. dont many single uk workers do the same thing as well. i lived in shared accomodation long time ago and had flatmates from uk and many other countries.

any company will want to hire workers for the market rate (cheapest) to be able to sell their produce to the uk consumers at a cheaper rate. every company will have to do that to survive. if there is a uk company hiring only uk workers at 180£ and doing construction work and there is another uk company hiring uk and EU workers at 80£/day, which company do you think will be more profitable and be able to bid lower for construction projects and make construction costs cheaper for the uk consumer. so lower payscales matter as uk consumers get a cheaper product. wouldnt you want a cheaper house???? wouldnt you want a cheaper car??? the companies are just doing what the market is forcing them to do.

also the Uk has signed up to the EU rules, so it cannot discriminate between a uk worker and an EU worker. any selection has to consider them equally otherwise they will breach employment and discrimination rules that the uk parliament made and also eu rules as well. just like the eu workers are entitled to work in the uk without restrictions similarly uk workers can work elsewhere in the eu without restrictions. the uk signed up to the EU treaties because it was beneficial to the uk, no country signs treaties if it is harmful to them. in any treaty there is give and take and compromises but once the govt signs the dotted line it is binding. you cant have your cake and eat it too.

apart from the EU rules the uk (along with hundreds of other countries) has signed up to the GATS rules of WTO which govern agreements in trade and services. trade and services are interlinked hence these multilateral agreements between hundreds of countries aprat from the many other bilateral agreements between countries.

in these days of a globalised economy, if one country can sell their produce (coca cola or hawk jets or landrover military vehicles or cars or agricultrural products etc etc) and services (financial services like in london) to other countries then the other countries can sell products and services (labour) as well to the uk as allowed under bilateral and multilateral rules.

if uk companies can buy foreign companies around the world then why cant foreign companies buy uk companies. the same applies to labour as well.

the people elected the MPs and they voted for the bills / treaties that were signed by the UK govt giving legitimacy to the many international agreements and it is the law and perfectly fair for migrant workers to get jobs where allowed by the uk laws. nothing illegal or unfair or unjust about it.

nothing illegal about sharing a house as well. and they pay the relavant rate fixed by the council for the property. they pay their income taxes just like everyone else. if they dont have families isnt this what the uk govt is trying to encourage via the various immigration rules especially for low skilled workers etc which have maintenence funds requirements for migrant workers without which they cant get their families with them. each additional dependent adds hundreds of pounds to the maintenence requirement which one is supposed to maintain AT ALL TIMES AFTER EVERY TRANSACTION IN THEIR BANK ACCOUNTS. for a family of 4 this will run into a few thousand pounds (i forgot the exact requirement) which is to be maintained in their account easily accessible at all times otherwise the visa cant be renewed / given. some types of short duration visas dont allow the spouse to work or have restrictions on type of employment for dependents, so in those situations their spouses might prefer to stay elsewhere for career/monetary reasons. so migrants dont have it all hunky dory and get things handed out on a plate. if they are willing to go anywhere for a job its because they dont have a choice or they dont get paid. non eu migrants dont have any access to benefits (a condition of the visa) so if they dont work their !!!! is on a sling out of the uk come visa renewal time.

illegal car driving without license is done by all sorts of people and not just migrants. no one should condone illegal acts be they migrants or uk citizens.

protectionism never encouraged excellence anywhere. to survive in the global economy every country needs to encourage excellence and cost effectiveness.

you wouldnt buy a made in uk fridge or tv if it costed double that of another equally good fridge made in japan. the same applies to cars. then why should your company hire you for 160£ a day when they can get the same work from others for 80£ (remember you yourself said - a brick wall is a brick wall, so why should the company pay someone double that of the market rate to build the same wall). as long as they pay above the legal wage limit and the market wage then how can you or anyone else justify the company trying to get the job done for half the cost.

isnt such absurd demands by workers that bankcrupted the big 3 car makers in the usa. GM chrysler and ford employees get much larger pay packets and perks than the toyota workers in the usa car plants. no wonder the big 3 are going bust and needing bailouts funded by the tax payers. the united auto workers union has had one joy ride too many and they screwed the tax payers in the bargain and the company as well.

EDIT: regarding the original post in this thread about not reserving a single post in the plants for uk workers -
as per the eu rules which the uk signed up to, the uk cannot bar any EU workers from applying or being considered for any job in the uk. it would be illegal to do so and these unions are breaking the law by asking for such things.

if it is not good for the uk then the uk should withdraw from these treaties. one cant have their cake and eat it too by enjoying the benefits of the treaties but not wanting to pay the price.

loveangel

I blame the Trade Unions who spend all their time fannying about claiming to look after the interests of just about every denomodation of human except long established english workers.
Funny thing is that Government is populated by EX-trade unionists with no business experience whatsoever, so it really is the blind leading the blind when have trade unions ever created long terms job with the exception of their own and their chums? they restroyed Rover in Longbridge with over 350 stopages during one period even though they had always been the best paid factory workers for miles they still wanted more until they bankrupted the company and all lost their jobs and indeed their pensions too in many cases.
If foreign workers are unfair competition don;t grumble - simply don;t vote labour next time and every time anyone grumbles about these timgs simply tell them ' don't vote labour then'!!!

stevsand

loveangel wrote: »

I blame the Trade Unions who spend all their time fannying about claiming to look after the interests of just about every denomodation of human except long established english workers.
Funny thing is that Government is populated by EX-trade unionists with no business experience whatsoever, so it really is the blind leading the blind when have trade unions ever created long terms job with the exception of their own and their chums? they restroyed Rover in Longbridge with over 350 stopages during one period even though they had always been the best paid factory workers for miles they still wanted more until they bankrupted the company and all lost their jobs and indeed their pensions too in many cases.
If foreign workers are unfair competition don;t grumble - simply don;t vote labour next time and every time anyone grumbles about these timgs simply tell them ' don't vote labour then'!!!

Loving your lack of knowledge:rolleyes:

Dylanwing

We are in recession/ depression, and whatever the rights and wrongs, it will cause a lot of bad feeling. For all the Globalism talk, the natural reaction of most Countries will be to look after its own - Normal human reaction. Yes, the construction company bosses may benefit, but little of that money will stay in the UK, and what is the real cost to the taxpayer of creating local unemployment? The economic argument does not add up, it will create great resentment, and as has been seen often throughout history, civil disturbance will be the outcome if this gets repeated too often. All to save a few £££s.

dervish

tomstickland wrote: »

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hundreds-join-power-station-jobs-protest-1419548.html

I really think any British government should adopt the maxim and enforce that "British jobs should be for British people". Especially in these dark times.

The blight on our scoiety that comes from simply importing cheap labourr from overseas has really been felt hard over the last few years. Tensions are now running very high and I can sympathise with the ordinary decent working man that sees his job being taken by a East European. or Oriental.

dervish

mewbie wrote: »

The argument seems to be British jobs for British workers. Sounds nice. But companies can choose who they employ and more importantly where they are based. So if they cannot employ cheap labour here, they will move abroad.

There are some areas that can't move abroad such as farms. Who employ foreign workers to pick beans, whatever. I don't think there would be a queue for those jobs if no foreigners allowed. So would they have to pay more? Which would put up the price of our food. Which we would then buy from abroad.

Either we have global market economy, or some form of isolated and protected socialism? Can't have it both ways.

If any of the main political parties had the guts to do what the majority of the British public wants - namely stopping immigration full stop, and beginning to move on a lot of the illegals and asylum seekers - then the issue of hiring cheaper foriegners wouldnt even arise.